just saying what everyone else is

[vaznetti]

It's nice not to feel completely out of step with the fandom re: Dean and his misogynist language; as everyone has pointed out, trollprincess did the math and there's a distinct upswing in the number of times Dean and Sam use pejoratives when addressing women -- from 3 times over 22 episodes to 18 times over 16. So it's not surprising that by the time I got to the end of the season I was more or less unmoved by Dean's suffering.

What I like best, though, are the excuses for it -- which range from "blame CW!" to "that's not sexist!" to "they deserve it!" to "it's because of the fangirls!" But my absolute favorite, so far, has to be "It's all John's fault!" (cereta's whole post there is worth reading, as are the comments). Because although indeed it is theoretically possible that John was a sexist asshole, the textual evidence we have does not support it. I am so tempted to go all teal deery about this! Because sure, Missouri and Ellen (and probably Mary) would totally have put up with that.

Unless calling Kate-the-vampire "sweetheart" counts in this context, of course.

Comments

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

I think my favorite argument is that we're all indulging in a naive reading and demanding perfect, unrealistic heroes from a gritty drama rather than appreciating the true sophistication of the characterization.

[vaznetti]

Yes, that one is also good -- it's OMG DRAMA! It's supposed to be offensive! We want Dean to be perfect and to weep his single perfect tear!

I like all the excuses, actually. Or more precisely, I like to mock them.

[medie]

Yeah, I was oddly relieved and stress free with the confirmation. You get constantly told you're just imagining things/being alarmist enough, you start wondering. It's a relief to be able to point to at least one source of concrete facts.

And I've gotten ALL these excuses and then some (don't forget the 'well, we just didn't get to see the girls talking about THEM that way' one I also got). Including the blaming John. Which. Huh. Just No. Somehow, I can't see John doing that. I tend to cite the way the boys addressed him as an indication that he's probably not going to take that kind of disrespectful language about anyone. Considering he seemed to venerate Mary (plus Ellen and Missouri both would've whapped him one). It's just highly unlikely.

Also completely beside the point, but I just can't resist picking up for John. Perhaps next he'll get blamed for the fall of the Roman Empire and reality television?

[vaznetti]

I really boggled at some of the comments on your post. I mean, I like the show too, but I'm tired of people making all these excuses for it.

I have to run now, but wanted to say that much. ::hug::

[medie]

My brain keeps breaking with attempts to find coherent ways to say "well, that's, er, insane." Yes. I'm tired of the excuses. I just want people to go "wow, that's wrong." Not "that's not right, but..." It reminds me of a Jeff Foxworthy routine. "Just once I want somebody to say, my papa was great, my mama was great, I'm just a shithead." Let us not try to subscribe sympathetic motives to characters and their screw ups when, really, it's the people behind the curtain who need a metaphorical smack upside the head.

*SNUG*

[vaznetti]

I think you are being very tactful. I would be rolling my eyes and probably have descended into rudeness by now.

Considering he seemed to venerate Mary (plus Ellen and Missouri both would've whapped him one). It's just highly unlikely.

Yeah, and Missouri knows what you're thinking. Would she really agree to help him if he were deeply sexist (or racist)? I mean, if anything, it's the final absence of John which has let this side of Dean come out.

[medie]

I have done a lot of biting of my tongue. A *lot*. Tthough boy did I have to sit on my hands when I was reading through comments on someone's journal and saw, what looked like, a quasi-attempt at blaming John by spotlighting the Marine culture toward women. It was...on one hand true, but with enough spin on it that I had to forcibly move on. The last thing people need is a Canadian popping up to lecture someone on the gender politics, sexual assault statistics, and general treatment of women by the US military.

I am, however, sputtering plenty IRL.

But yes, if the brainlessness keeps up? No More Ms. Nice Canadian. *G*

and yeah, I *REALLY* don't see John putting up with this kind of disrespect (and I certainly can't see Missouri letting it slide. She certainly seemed to have the personal latitude with John to let him have it if he needed it.) I can't see a man, so obviously still so affected by Mary, tolerate those kinds of attitudes in his son. And yeah, you're right. If anything, we could point toward John's absence for this sudden shift with Dean.

[vaznetti]

I saw somewhere in comments someone saying "We wouldn't like Sam and Dean so much if they were the kind of people who said 'sir' and 'ma'am' all the time." And I didn't do it, but I really wanted to say, 'hey, remember S1? where they called their father 'sir'? and used 'sir' and 'ma'am' for a lot of older people, at least? I did like that Sam and Dean!" I mean, John sure didn't put up with disrespect toward him, and I'm guessing he expected them to show the same kind of respect to his peers.

But I was too busy rolling my eyes and spluttering to type.

[vee-fic.livejournal.com]

I jumped into Cereta's comments to make exactly that argument in John's defense!

I have been remarkably lucky not to have particularly run into the pro-misogyny crowd (till today, when I followed several links, and then had to spend an hour searching for my eyeballs where they had rolled under the table). Now I've been exposed to them, all I can say is, Dudes: therapy. Also, get offa my planet!

[vaznetti]

I am just so tempted to go through all the times we see John in the same scene as a woman, because OMG the evidence is so completely lacking. I mean, he may well be no paragon, but... EVIDENCE, people, learn to know what that word means.

There is not enough therapy in the world for some people, I fear.

[amalthia]

I really liked your post about this topic.

[vaznetti]

Thank you!

[phantomas.livejournal.com]

...I'm happy that I'm so RL busy I have barely been able to watch the season finale in bits and pieces... hiatus wank has ALREADY started?!?

I wonder why people are so surprised: ALL of US TV (and most of the rest of the world anyway) is mysogynistic. Our Western culture is mysogynistic. I haven't yet met a televisual text capable of passing unscathed a feminist/queer analysis..and the horror genre has tons of volumes written about it and its gender issues.

I don't expect much from any TV show under this respect, especially not when many fans of the female persuasion use the term 'bitches' and '(w)ho(re)' in an (allegedly)endearing, 'we're-appropriating-patriarchal-terminology-yay'!, way....only NOT.

Anyway. RL busy, thankfully. And of course is all John's fault, didn't you know?
/sarcasm

:D
*hugs*

[vaznetti]

I think the particular issue ATM is the fact that the show really has changed this season, when compared to the first two. And people who feel that they've already come to terms with the show's sexism don't want to have to go back and do that work again. But I think Trollprincess's posts are pretty damning.

And I just HATE the "well, they deserved it!" argument. At least the "blame John" excuse doesn't have real-world repercussions.

[elanurel.livejournal.com]

I play so much on the periphery of SPN fandom these days, I've only recently heard about other people being just as upset as I've been about this. (You already know I'm writing another fic o' doom based on one of the spn_xx prompts that is my response to 3.09, the episode that singlehandedly set off all of my cranky alarms.)

As trollprincess shows, you can't argue with the math. I watched the first twelve episodes of the season in one shot as part of writing my not-big-bang. Watching the season unfold - without a break from the pejoratives - only clarified the language issue for me.

And the statistics don't even touch the subtext...

[vaznetti]

I think that a lot of people have noticed and not been talking about it, because we do like the show, and the characters, and we don't want to just complain. But I think the last two episodes have been pretty brutal, between the treatment of Bela and that of Ruby, and now I'm starting to see more and more discussion of the sexism.

And yeah, aside from the language, the whole arc of the season has been "male is good, female is evil." And that's not the show I started watching.

[medie]

I said to someone in my post. The arc of S3 = The only good woman is a dead woman. (After all the longest sustained female presence SPN has had is that of dead women who've had their bodies - and agency - completely highjacked by entities who are, in essence, evil. I could make a rather unpleasant allusion here, but for my own sanity, I think I won't.)

But good god do I want to go back and start writing some sort of S3 Jo/Nora w. Bela fic. *sigh* which I so don't have time for. But boy I wanna.

[vaznetti]

I said to someone in my post. The arc of S3 = The only good woman is a dead woman.

Yes, and although the show has always adored dead women, this is a very different kind of "dead = good" situation. At least there used to be some good live women around to point to, as well.

[hossgal.livejournal.com]

Because although indeed it is theoretically possible that John was a sexist asshole, the textual evidence we have does not support it. I am so tempted to go all teal deery about this! Because sure, Missouri and Ellen (and probably Mary) would totally have put up with that.

Word.

I am not even following, clicking, or in any other way engaging in the argument (if I hadn't been involved in this same argument since the second week after I started watching the show, I might, but not now) but this? Oh hell yeah.

Put up with it long enough to pick their jaws up off the floor and say "Door. Now. And don't come back."

*sigh*

God, I miss Ellen.

- hg

[vaznetti]

I am not even following, clicking, or in any other way engaging in the argument (if I hadn't been involved in this same argument since the second week after I started watching the show, I might, but not now) but this? Oh hell yeah.

You are wise to avoid the argument, because it would only make your head explode.

And as for the John issue... yeah. I mean, obviously the guy does piss people off, but it's not a gendered thing. If anything, John's an equal opportunity asshole.

I really wish we could have Ellen back next season.

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

I want Ellen back so much. And Sarah and Missouri and Diane and Kathleen and Hendrickson, who is not a woman, but I want him back anyway. And I want John back. Somehow. He could phone it in for flashbacks.

[hossgal.livejournal.com]

If anything, John's an equal opportunity asshole.

heee! Yes.

- hg

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

Well you know where I stand--the only way I can watch it at all is to stick my fingers in my ears and "la-la-la-la" the whole character development of the past season and a half. I'd have stopped watching a long time ago, except that I like the fanfic and stick around so that I get the context. And they still do pull the occasional gripping moments out of the hat. But it has gotten more bitter and mean with each passing year. It dismays me to see that the same people wrote some wonderful and touch episodes in the past.

I truly worry that what we see on the screen is a reflection of what the writers think we want, based on the chatter they read on their message boards.

And I remember Kripke wondering where all the X-Files fans were, why they weren't watching his show, and wondering what that show had that his show doesn't. And I though, how dumb can you be? It had Dana Scully. Competent, respected, and needed. Half the universe is female. But Kripke never did the math.

[cofax7]

And I remember Kripke wondering where all the X-Files fans were, why they weren't watching his show, and wondering what that show had that his show doesn't.

::jaw drops::

He didn't. REALLY? Because dude, that's just dumb.

[vaznetti]

I am only commenting to applaud the perfect suitability of your icon!

[cofax7]

It is, in fact, perfect. ::preens::

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

He did. Honest. That is how blind they are. And yeah, perfect icon.

[vaznetti]

I think I mostly stick around for the fandom, but that may well become less of a draw over time. I've barely read any fic this year, to be honest, particularly off my friends list.

I find the extent to which the showrunners don't understand that they're driving fans like you and me away very frustrating -- almost as frustrating as the thought that they may well know exactly what they're doing.

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

Ever since Red Sky it's been clear to me that they don't like their fans and, even more important, are so set on making sure we know it that they will sacrifice the integrity of their own creative vision to insult us. To which, again, how dumb is that?

And I agree that there is less fic that grips me as the newer portrayals muddy the waters.

I think SCC and Bones may make it easier for me to let go of the fandom. I actually have shows that I like a lot now, with interesting interactions in which women play a key role. And a lot of my friends seem to be catching one or the other bandwagon, so it may be time to move on.

[tavella.livejournal.com]

And I remember Kripke wondering where all the X-Files fans were, why they weren't watching his show, and wondering what that show had that his show doesn't. And I though, how dumb can you be? It had Dana Scully. Competent, respected, and needed. Half the universe is female. But Kripke never did the math.

Yow. It's not like X-Files didn't have gender issues all over the place, but in terms of both Scully and various supporting and one shot females, it was miles and miles above the misogyny of SPN.

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

I really miss Scully. And Buffy. And Aeryn Sun.

ETA: and Sydney Bristow!

[subtly-modded.livejournal.com]

Do you know if anyone has looked at the number of times the characters in the series call other male characters by derogatory names? Are the instances at all similar? Offhand, and granted this is from memory, I thought that they were.

I don't deny that this season has been different than the last two, but I do believe that some of what prompted these discussions has to do with having a female Big Bad and another female character as an antagonist to the boys instead of male antagonists.

[vaznetti]

Sorry for the delay answering this comment!

If you look over the posts in trollprincess's LJ before the one I linked to, you'll see that she does include statistics for "son of a bitch," which IIRC is only used toward men or male-type monsters -- very common in S1 and S2, but seems to fall out of use in S3.

but I do believe that some of what prompted these discussions has to do with having a female Big Bad and another female character as an antagonist to the boys instead of male antagonists.

Well, I think that this is actually part of the problem. I mean, if you're going to make Lilith your Big Adversary, I think you should probably think carefully about what else you're saying about women, especially women with their own agendas, and about female sexuality. (I am presuming here that you know the story; not all viewers will, but the show's writers have in the past been pretty good about getting the occult research right, so I have to assume that they know it too.) I don't get a positive message from the combination of Ruby, Bela and Lilith here -- what I get is the message that good women know their place, and know that their place is subordinate to the men in their lives. So I don't think that the overall structure of the season can be used to excuse the languague -- I think they are both facets of the same larger problem.

[subtly-modded.livejournal.com]

Thanks for responding - I'm interested in this topic, just don't want to cause/further any wankage, so I appreciate the answer and the explanation.

I did check the post that you mentioned. I didn't see the bit about Sam and Dean being called "those assholes from Texas" in Ghostfacers, but other than that, it's an interesting distillation.

Regarding Lilith... Honestly, I don't think that she is "the" Lilith, which might color my viewpoint on the whole matter. I didn't get the same message that you did from the Ruby/Bela/Lilith thing, but I respect your views on it. In my opinion, the writing this season has been inconsistent at best, and I think that the adversaries and their actions were inconsistent and somtimes downright confusing because of it.