just saying what everyone else is

[vaznetti]

It's nice not to feel completely out of step with the fandom re: Dean and his misogynist language; as everyone has pointed out, trollprincess did the math and there's a distinct upswing in the number of times Dean and Sam use pejoratives when addressing women -- from 3 times over 22 episodes to 18 times over 16. So it's not surprising that by the time I got to the end of the season I was more or less unmoved by Dean's suffering.

What I like best, though, are the excuses for it -- which range from "blame CW!" to "that's not sexist!" to "they deserve it!" to "it's because of the fangirls!" But my absolute favorite, so far, has to be "It's all John's fault!" (cereta's whole post there is worth reading, as are the comments). Because although indeed it is theoretically possible that John was a sexist asshole, the textual evidence we have does not support it. I am so tempted to go all teal deery about this! Because sure, Missouri and Ellen (and probably Mary) would totally have put up with that.

Unless calling Kate-the-vampire "sweetheart" counts in this context, of course.

Comments

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

I think my favorite argument is that we're all indulging in a naive reading and demanding perfect, unrealistic heroes from a gritty drama rather than appreciating the true sophistication of the characterization.

[medie]

Yeah, I was oddly relieved and stress free with the confirmation. You get constantly told you're just imagining things/being alarmist enough, you start wondering. It's a relief to be able to point to at least one source of concrete facts.

And I've gotten ALL these excuses and then some (don't forget the 'well, we just didn't get to see the girls talking about THEM that way' one I also got). Including the blaming John. Which. Huh. Just No. Somehow, I can't see John doing that. I tend to cite the way the boys addressed him as an indication that he's probably not going to take that kind of disrespectful language about anyone. Considering he seemed to venerate Mary (plus Ellen and Missouri both would've whapped him one). It's just highly unlikely.

Also completely beside the point, but I just can't resist picking up for John. Perhaps next he'll get blamed for the fall of the Roman Empire and reality television?

[vee-fic.livejournal.com]

I jumped into Cereta's comments to make exactly that argument in John's defense!

I have been remarkably lucky not to have particularly run into the pro-misogyny crowd (till today, when I followed several links, and then had to spend an hour searching for my eyeballs where they had rolled under the table). Now I've been exposed to them, all I can say is, Dudes: therapy. Also, get offa my planet!

[amalthia]

I really liked your post about this topic.

[phantomas.livejournal.com]

...I'm happy that I'm so RL busy I have barely been able to watch the season finale in bits and pieces... hiatus wank has ALREADY started?!?

I wonder why people are so surprised: ALL of US TV (and most of the rest of the world anyway) is mysogynistic. Our Western culture is mysogynistic. I haven't yet met a televisual text capable of passing unscathed a feminist/queer analysis..and the horror genre has tons of volumes written about it and its gender issues.

I don't expect much from any TV show under this respect, especially not when many fans of the female persuasion use the term 'bitches' and '(w)ho(re)' in an (allegedly)endearing, 'we're-appropriating-patriarchal-terminology-yay'!, way....only NOT.

Anyway. RL busy, thankfully. And of course is all John's fault, didn't you know?
/sarcasm

:D
*hugs*

[elanurel.livejournal.com]

I play so much on the periphery of SPN fandom these days, I've only recently heard about other people being just as upset as I've been about this. (You already know I'm writing another fic o' doom based on one of the spn_xx prompts that is my response to 3.09, the episode that singlehandedly set off all of my cranky alarms.)

As trollprincess shows, you can't argue with the math. I watched the first twelve episodes of the season in one shot as part of writing my not-big-bang. Watching the season unfold - without a break from the pejoratives - only clarified the language issue for me.

And the statistics don't even touch the subtext...

[hossgal.livejournal.com]

Because although indeed it is theoretically possible that John was a sexist asshole, the textual evidence we have does not support it. I am so tempted to go all teal deery about this! Because sure, Missouri and Ellen (and probably Mary) would totally have put up with that.

Word.

I am not even following, clicking, or in any other way engaging in the argument (if I hadn't been involved in this same argument since the second week after I started watching the show, I might, but not now) but this? Oh hell yeah.

Put up with it long enough to pick their jaws up off the floor and say "Door. Now. And don't come back."

*sigh*

God, I miss Ellen.

- hg

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

Well you know where I stand--the only way I can watch it at all is to stick my fingers in my ears and "la-la-la-la" the whole character development of the past season and a half. I'd have stopped watching a long time ago, except that I like the fanfic and stick around so that I get the context. And they still do pull the occasional gripping moments out of the hat. But it has gotten more bitter and mean with each passing year. It dismays me to see that the same people wrote some wonderful and touch episodes in the past.

I truly worry that what we see on the screen is a reflection of what the writers think we want, based on the chatter they read on their message boards.

And I remember Kripke wondering where all the X-Files fans were, why they weren't watching his show, and wondering what that show had that his show doesn't. And I though, how dumb can you be? It had Dana Scully. Competent, respected, and needed. Half the universe is female. But Kripke never did the math.

[subtly-modded.livejournal.com]

Do you know if anyone has looked at the number of times the characters in the series call other male characters by derogatory names? Are the instances at all similar? Offhand, and granted this is from memory, I thought that they were.

I don't deny that this season has been different than the last two, but I do believe that some of what prompted these discussions has to do with having a female Big Bad and another female character as an antagonist to the boys instead of male antagonists.