Supernatural 2x1, again

[vaznetti]

Spoilers for the whole episode, as before. Don't click if you don't want to know.


I was struck by the parallel between John and Dean here: John bargaining with the demon while Dean tries to bargain with Death (I think I'll just give in go ahead and name her; easier than the whole Reaper confusion issue). Both of them, in the end, choosing to give up their lives to avoid causing harm to the people near them. At least, that's what I think Dean was going to do. he wouldn't become what he hunted: that's just not what Dean would do.

I'm still not doing well with John's death; I wasn't watching only for John, but he was a big part of my experience as a fan -- look at the fic I've written, and it's pretty much all about John, and, you know, fanfic is what I do. That's my fannish participation thing. But JDM knocked it out of the park, and this was how John had to die, and I really, really want to be able to be OK with it, because it was the best death he was going to get.

Somewhere in me there's a post on how John is such a Roman, and the boys just aren't. This isn't that post.

I have been mocking John a lot, especially for his dumb plans, but this episode redeemed that for me, because we got to see John the father and John the hunter all at once, in his scenes with the Demon. And I loved how confident he was, how you could see it in his face and his voice 9and what a contrast to the John of Salvation and Devil's Trap), and that he was the one the Demon wanted out of the way, not Dean. And of course in addition to his final speech ot Dean, the act of letting the Demon take him is the greatest evidence John can give of his faith in Dean -- because he gave up his life and his chance of getting revenge to keep Dean alive, because he knows that Dean can take care of Sam and kill the Demon too. I don't know if Dean will ever figure that out, what that meant.

I said once, somewhere that what Dean needs from John is some kind of incontestable proof that John loves him and is proud of him, and then for John to die; I don't know if this was enough for Dean, what happened here.

I sometimes think it might be; I mean, I don't think that at the end John laid a burden on Dean that Dean hadn't already taken on, of his own free will. A lot depends on what John whispered to him, that left Dean looking like that: the truth about the deal he'd made? what he knew about Sam? some other thing? Something he didn't want the Demon to hear?

I love that everything I thought was a lie was the truth -- that he was summoning the Demon for Dean's sake, and that he wasn't going to hunt it. That even for John, some things matter more than the hunt, more than revenge. And I think that it's no surprise that he chose to give up his life for Dean's, because all that he could see, I think, was the harm he'd done, Sam's anger and Dean's broken body and nothing to show for all that sorrow. So he did the only thing he could do, fixed the only thing he could fix. I wonder when, exactly, he decided to go through with it, and how soon he knew that he wasn't going to get out alive; the irony that he was almost certainly preparing himself to die, while he sat by Dean's bed and Dean's spirit railed at him, appeals to me.

I love that John let Sam's prejudices distract him, to keep Sam from figuring out what he was really doing. And of course at the end it really is too late to fix that, even though he tries. I think in some ways Sam is going to be more wrecked by Dean, in the short term, because he was still angry when he left that room, wasn't he? And that wasn't something John could fix, not without letting Sam know what he'd done. And Sam made his choice, damn it, that he'd do whatever it took to keep his family alive -- and then John took that choice away from him.

I love how smart John was, how much he knew. I may need to rethink the character, a little, because the one thing I've always thought about John is that his reactions are determined by the short-term, not the long-term, so that he tends to reel from one crisis to the next; but this John has clearly been capable of holding things back, waiting and planning. Not in making the deal, which is another short-term fix, but in whatever the thing with Sam is, that mystery. And is that what he told Dean? It would depend what the secret is, I think.

Oh, John. Oh, John. You did what it took; you did good.

I'm still not handling this all that well.


Later on, I'll post a bit of Egyptian poetry; it's at the office, and I'm typing this at home.

Comments

[the-grynne.livejournal.com]

Still haven't seen the episode, and probably won't be able to for days, but I keep getting jolted by little reminders of it.

All I can think about is how the changes everything for the dynamic of the show. The boys will be one anothers' only family, they won't have even that lifeline of a cell phone number (and remember that the Demon has already killed several of John's oldest allies in the hunt). They'll be newly independent in a way, in a mental state, which they've never been before, especially Dean. I was wondering, all the way through watching s1, when Dean would cotton on the fact that he ought to start writing in his dad's journal, now that it had been bestowed to him. I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see him writing in it now.

[vaznetti]

It really does. And I knew that they'd have to go there eventually, but I wanted more time. (Pathetic, I know; but also, I think that both boys needed more time -- they're thrown out on their own now before they're really ready.)

I think that if this pushes Dean to the kind of independence he needs to develop, that will be good. Writing in the journal, I like that.

[the-grynne.livejournal.com]

It's like putting them out to sea before they've practiced paddling properly, isn't it? But that's why I don't really begrudge the writers deciding to force it upon them so soon - I'm hungry for the drama of seeing them struggle, and mature, and learn. Losing John though...is like losing the gravity which lent them their direction. Even in those episodes in which he didn't appear, his presence was always so intensely THERE, motivating them, pushing them. It'll feel empty without him, if the next few episodes aren't done right.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

I was wondering, all the way through watching s1, when Dean would cotton on the fact that he ought to start writing in his dad's journal, now that it had been bestowed to him. I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see him writing in it now.

Oh, what an excellent idea. That makes so much sense.

[the-grynne.livejournal.com]

...and if Sam has any say in it, they'll soon be putting in an index, too. :)

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

See, what they really should be doing is digitizing it, making an online database updatable by multiple people (or possibly a wiki), searchable, indexed, and frequently backed up and printed out for consultation offline.

[the-grynne.livejournal.com]

Hehe. Yes, and make a custom frontpage with feeds from all local newspapers with internet pages, and a technorati tag search for "supernatural" and "unexplained". :)

[elynross.livejournal.com]

Yeah, now I really want to see this!!!

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

Dean has a journal of his own. We see him writing in it in Something Wicked. :)

[the-grynne.livejournal.com]

Damn. We do? Must rewatch that episode. Sure he's not just writing love notes or something equally lightweight? :)

[dotfic.livejournal.com]

That's a fabulous idea, Dean writing in the journal. Wow.

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

dotfic, he has one, at least that was the concensus at the time. :) We saw it in, briefly, in Something Wicked. I couldn't find a cap of the exact moment but I think it was in this scene:

Dean goes to his pack and gets something out of it
http://supernatural.tv/gallery2/somethingwicked/wmplayer%202006-04-07%2018-56-59-89.jpg

Walks back over to the counter, where the research books are.
http://supernatural.tv/gallery2/somethingwicked/wmplayer%202006-04-07%2018-57-07-96.jpg

[dotfic.livejournal.com]

Ah. (D'oh.) Hee. I think my brain is still fried.

It would be neat if this season takes a look at Dean and his journaling habits.

[vaznetti]

That's really cool -- thanks for pointing this out -- I had a memory of this happening, as well.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I think it just means that Dean really has to BE John, now, not just acting John while John is away.

And I think that what he told Dean about Sam is probably that Dean is John's only son and what Sam actually is. My theory is he's either demon-spawn or heaven-spawn of some kind, probably the latter because the demon wants to destroy him and all those like him so badly. But Dean is ordinary, like John, which makes what he does as a hunter all the more brave and special. Because Sam was born to be an instrument in the fight, but Dean wasn't. And that whole thing about how it's taken Dean's whole life and he never once complained.

Though I hate the comparison because of my issues with Paul,but, it's sort of like the Jesus and Paul thing. Jesus was the annointed special one, but Paul built the Church, the thing that lasted 2000 years or what Jesus said would have been forgotten. Jesus (in the myth) was chosen, but Paul, who was ordinary, built everything, held it together, and did all the work. I think that's what's going on here. Sam will lead them with his psychic powers, and Dean will do everything else. That's mostly the way its been so far as well. Sam will get all the credit, and Dean will just be his follower, even though his job is actually as important.

And I bet the boys will do something with the journal, or maybe start keeping their own now. Sam probably on the computer, and Dean in a book, because the tradition means a lot to Dean.

[vaznetti]

One of the things I love about Dean is that he isn't driven and he isn't special, and he keeps going anyway. But maybe he's Peter -- the rock on which one builds the family, so to speak, rather than Paul? I'm not sure I see them as unequal in the way that you do -- although I think Dean may see it that way, sometimes.

I don't think the Demon is trying to destroy Sam and the other children -- he's careful not to hurt Sam in the confrontation in the S1 finale, and it would be easier to kill the babies than their mothers, if that's what it wanted. But they have power (of some kind, from wherever) and it wants to use that.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I don't really see Dean as unequal. He's just not annointed/chosen/predestined. He's stepped up to the obligation/job/whatever. Anyone COULD do it, but it takes a special person TO do it.

And the fact that he's not obsessed, but he knows it needs to be done and goes out and does it every day. That's character, right there. It's the Xander factor, almost. No special powers, but you stand up to kill the bad things once you know they exist, even though you don't have the special abilities of those around you.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

I don't think the Demon is trying to destroy Sam and the other children -- he's careful not to hurt Sam in the confrontation in the S1 finale, and it would be easier to kill the babies than their mothers, if that's what it wanted. But they have power (of some kind, from wherever) and it wants to use that.

I think the power can be used against the Demon partly because that's how the story always goes, and partly because in Salvation the fire started in the baby's crib, rather than from the ceiling. So the mother's deaths are used to somehow mark the babies (?), which makes them more valuable or less dangerous (or both) to the Demon.

[elynross.livejournal.com]

...the one thing I've always thought about John is that his reactions are determined by the short-term, not the long-term, so that he tends to reel from one crisis to the next...

He's been hunting this demon for twenty-two years, obviously got training and has worked really hard honing his craft -- that's short-term thinking? *g*

[vaznetti]

Yeah, I probably could have put that better. But it strikes me that when faced with an immediate crisis, John is very good at getting through that crisis (so for example, the fake colt plan gets Meg to stop killing everyone, even though John has to know that the odds are against his getting out alive -- or the decision to disappear with his sons, when it looks like the other mechanic is going to call in social workers, which set their whole lives in motion... I guess I see that as a defining moment for John, actually.) Obviously, though, I agree that John is extremely competent and extremely focused, but i think that he spends a lot of effort on the things which are in his control precisely because there's so much that isn't in his control.

And I i think that a lot of how John was in this episode is making me rethink him.

[elynross.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think sometimes the job requires thinking fast on your feet, making do with what you have/know, and that leads to some sloppiness; you don't always have the time for careful planning. The demon is longterm, but as confrontation happens, as things change, movement becomes short-term again.

And I i think that a lot of how John was in this episode is making me rethink him.

So many people seemed to decide "how John was" based mostly on a single flashback, and what the boys had to say about him. It's interesting, in fannish tropes Dean is the one who would usually be seen as Speaking Truth, as the character that fans just bought what he sold wholesale without a thought to the unreliable narrator view, where Sam is the less-loved, in some ways, but it's his view of John that often seemed to get bought wholesale. It's like... where Sam&Dean are concerned, Dean speaks the "truth" of their relationship, but where John&the boys are concerned, Dean's overwhelmed by hero worship and alienated Sam speaks the truth. What IMToD seemed to do is give us concrete "shown" evidence that neither boy is entirely reliable/has a complete view of things, anymore than any of us is/does, and shown us that other side of John the loving father that some of us assumed was there, but complicated by the circumstances of his life.

The John post-IMToD is a more complete person than we'd really been able to see before.

[vaznetti]

Actually, I think my reaction to that scene in "Something Wicked" was slightly different from that of most (much?) of the fandom.

I've never had the slightest doubt that John loved his sons beyond everything -- you see it in all their interactions as adults, just in the way he looks at them. I think that the John and Dean relationship is complicated by the fact that Dean has to be both John's son and his partner, and that Dean wants to be both son and partner; I don't buy into a lot of the fanon about the way John treated Dean, because it just doesn't fit what I see on the screen.

What I meant was that John is doing some pretty high-level and complicated (and dangerous) magic in this episode -- and whereas I wouldn't have doublted the strength of his will, the training and study isn't necessarily something I would have seen him devoting the time to. Now that it's there, it makes perfect sense, but it does open up a new side to his character for me (and since I'm a book-study kind of person, it's a peculiarly interesting one.)

[zarahemla.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it hit the end of the ep and I said to myself, "vaznetti is one sad panda right now." For your sake, I'm very sorry he died.

[vaznetti]

I am indeed a very very sad panda. But I am focusing on the denial stage, the one where there's resfic and hope.

[muridae-x.livejournal.com]

{{{{{Vanzetti}}}}}

I started thinking of you from about halfway through the episode, when the dreadful sinking feeling started in my stomach as I connected what John was saying and doing with how they were going to get Dean back from hovering-on-the-brink-of-death. Maybe I'm naturally suspicious; but I didn't think for more than about two seconds that he might be after the demon rather than doing everything to bring Dean back, mainly because it was Sam who accused him of it. Sometimes they're right about each other, but more often they're utterly utterly wrong.

So, yeah, from the moment that John started making plans for demon summoning, I thought it had to be for Dean. And the gun was never going to be enough. I get the feeling that, even when he was negotiating so fearlessly in the basement he knew it wasn't going to be enough, but he tried it just because he wasn't ready to quit on his mission any more than he was on his son.

Whatever it was he whispered to Dean, it was a passing on of the responsibility, both for the hunt and for the family. And he did make the best attempt at saying a proper goodbye and speaking all the unspoken things to Dean. At that moment he was very much the favoured son.

I think my favourite moment of the show was when Dean realised the truth of how he'd become what he'd spent his life hunting, if he took his refusal to give up beyond a certain point. It is one of the things I like about the show; its capacity to embrace that kind of shade of grey. The monsters have motivations too, and they could so easily be us, if we let them in.

[vaznetti]

I loved that scene with Dean and the Reaper as well, because that's exactly right: the line between us and the monsters is sometimes so thin in the show, and nearly everything the brothers hunt was human once and made the choice to become monstrous.

Thanks for thinking of me. At least nothing will ever be as meaningless as the Unfortunate Incident: this is how John would have wanted to die, if he couldn't die destroying the demon. I was in such a state of denial, though, that I didn't see what was obviously coming until it was far too late.

I loved that he tried to trade the gun anyway, even though you're right, it was never going to be enough. Oh, John.

[muridae-x.livejournal.com]

I got brief Unfortunate Incident flashbacks, especially since the negotiations went on in a basement - though not, thankfully, in a garage. But John's is a whole different level of boneheadedness. He is at least negotiating with a strong hand - he has something that the demon wants, and he's made darned sure that they give him what he wants before he hands it over.

Whereas the Unfortunate Incident was just... wasteful. Everybody lost, whether it be life, self-respect, or a potential source of information.

*sigh* Yes, I'm still bitter.

[octavia-b.livejournal.com]

I can't believe you have the ability to meta, and so coherently too. I'm still at the "Nooooooo!" stage. I mean, Dean's my boy, but John was my man, y'know?

[vaznetti]

Oh, I'm still screaming inside. I can't believe that he's gone. I don't want to believe it. He was my guy. He can't be gone.

[destina.livejournal.com]

I love that everything I thought was a lie was the truth -- that he was summoning the Demon for Dean's sake, and that he wasn't going to hunt it. That even for John, some things matter more than the hunt, more than revenge.

YES. And that's really what broke me, I think; I was so stunned that he'd reached this decision, I could barely process it. He had to let go of so much to come to this point. It's an amazing character moment. :D

[vaznetti]

Yes, and I keep coming back to what it says about his faith in Dean and Sam, that he can pass it on to them, with the full knowledge that they might decide that it's just not worth the cost. That he trusts the two of them that much, and believes in them that deeply. To me that's just as important as what he said out loud.

And I love that it's all implied -- that essentially, John takes theis huge internal journey and it all happens off-screen, or at least off the page, and we only relaize at the end what he's been doing.

Oh, John.

[dotfic.livejournal.com]

I was struck by the parallel between John and Dean here: John bargaining with the demon while Dean tries to bargain with Death

Oh. Yes. Nice!

I'm still not doing well with John's death; I wasn't watching only for John, but he was a big part of my experience as a fan -- look at the fic I've written, and it's pretty much all about John, and, you know, fanfic is what I do. That's my fannish participation thing. But JDM knocked it out of the park, and this was how John had to die

I know what you mean. Although I think I'm here mostly for Dean, not John but JDM and John's presence was a big part of my experience of season 1, the episodes that really shook me the most were JDM's. My fic hasn't been mostly John, but I've ficced him enough that it's another level of ouch to lose him.

Somewhere in me there's a post on how John is such a Roman, and the boys just aren't. This isn't that post.

No, that's an essay, which you will write.

because all that he could see, I think, was the harm he'd done, Sam's anger and Dean's broken body and nothing to show for all that sorrow. So he did the only thing he could do, fixed the only thing he could fix.

That's so beautifully put. *fangirls your meta* But because I'm in deep deep denial here, I think he *also*, in addition to a true act of sacrifice to save his son, has a P-L-A-N and dying was part of it. But how much of that is denial (HE'S NOT DEAD HE'S JUST TAKING A NAP) and how much is actual meta. However what we've seen of the character so far, it's almost never purely about the Love. That's not to say he doesn't love his boys more than breathing. I've said that before this and it was neat to have proof in this episode. He literally does love his sons more than his own life. But--he has a PLAN too.

His sacrifice, though, was something I started to get just a glimmer of an inkling of, maybe it was Bobby pointing out the materials weren't for protection. I *wanted* John to do what he did, even though I'm not happy he's gone and want him back RIGHT NOW KTHX. But my view of John allows for a John who would lay down his life for his son, even though I think he's screwed up and screwed up his kids too.

I was so glad Dean got to rail at him. He needed to do that, even if he doesn't remember it after.

John is such an amazing bad-ass.

Oh, John. Oh, John. You did what it took; you did good.

I'm still not handling this all that well.

Sing it.

Awesome meta!

[vaznetti]

But because I'm in deep deep denial here, I think he *also*, in addition to a true act of sacrifice to save his son, has a P-L-A-N and dying was part of it.

I guess you've seen researchgrrrl's really awesome meta post about the sigil John was using in the basement scene? I think that we still don't know the full ramifications of the deal John made. For one thing, I think the demon wanted to do more than just kill him -- I don't think it's through with John yet. But I would not be surprised to discover that John was doing more than giving his life for Dean's there, that he had asecondary purpose, and was putting himself in a position to get to the demon and destroy it even without the Colt. Because I would not want to put limits on what John is now capable of, and I take back everything I said about his plans. The John we saw here is perfectly capable of playing a long game, and that's what I think he's doing.

At least, that's what I want to think he's doing. I may just be indulging in wishful thinking.

I agree with you about John -- but although I agree that he screwed up, I think that much of the time there was no good choice for him to make. And although the boys have their issues, they're also both good men, and they're good men because John raised them to be good men. That's his real legacy to them.

I just can't believe he's gone. I don't want him to be gone.

[dotfic.livejournal.com]

A long game--exactly! Yes, I read researchgrrrl's brilliant post and got all excited at the implications.

I just can't believe he's gone. I don't want him to be gone.

That's how it feels to me too. After the episode ended I said to the friend I was on the phone with at the time, "That did NOT just happen!" o_O

[merrycontrary.livejournal.com]

Logically, I know he's dead and would be disappointed if he miraculously returned to life. But the emotional part of me is stuck mumbling but but but maybe. Which leaves me in a nice stunned, numb place.

Thank God for AUs.

[vaznetti]

I'm realyl torn about this, because I can almost convince myself that he is coming back. But the emotional impact of the episode is so strong as it is that I can see why they wouldn't -- they'll never do such a good job killing him off again!

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

So, I lovd to be annoyed by John, and I would certainly miss that. He is, after all, the grown-up and I'm not so much intersted in the younger guys without him.

But I did think it was a lovely episode with an absolutely pitch perfect playing out of the relationships at the top of the emotional scale. I have this terrible thought, though, that dad could have prepared for a temporary death only to have his sons make it permanent with their own perfectly well meant rituals to protect him from being reanimated by demons. Oops.

But then, I am a truly sick puppy.

Of course, that could be what he told Dean. "Dig me up--don't make me scramble out of the grave on my own like poor Buffy had to do!" Which, if I was Dean, would seriously annoy me. Because it really was a hairbrained scheme with more chance of disaster than success.

And, it would annoy ME, because I thought he loved his son enough to die for him. Would be disappointing to discover it was just, "Loved his son enough to try to trick a demon, which he does pretty much every day."

[vaznetti]

I have this terrible thought, though, that dad could have prepared for a temporary death only to have his sons make it permanent with their own perfectly well meant rituals to protect him from being reanimated by demons. Oops.

Well, I'm clearly pretty sick as well, because that really cracked me up, too. oops! Although presumably that would be what he told them -- for god's sakes, don't burn the body!

But I sincerely doubt we'll see any kind of reanimation. Sincerely.

And, it would annoy ME, because I thought he loved his son enough to die for him. Would be disappointing to discover it was just, "Loved his son enough to try to trick a demon, which he does pretty much every day."

Whereas I think this scenario has a lot of dramatic possibility, because presumably the boys would be pretty damn pissed off about it once they put all the pieces together. And then they really would have something to fight about! And I like the idea of John multi-tasking, here.

Not convinced that any of this will happen, of course. But right now I'm enjoying the shady banks of Denial.