let me show you them

[vaznetti]

I have been thinking about Sam Winchester, over the course of this season, and wondering whether he will worm his way into the John-shaped hole in the SPN-loving portions of my heart. Not yet, but I don't rule it out.


What's fascinating, of course, is that what came back from the dead is 100% pure unadulterated Sam Winchester. He's always been ruthless, and he's always been willing to sacrifice other people's wellbeing for his own: this is the boy who at 18 cut his ties with his only family because they would interfere with the life he'd chosen for himself. Now he's more mature and less selfish, but the ruthlessness is still there.

One of the many wonderful things about the first season was seeing Sam move through the grief he starts with -- at Jessica's death -- by coming to care about his brother again. Dean gets Sam to look outside himself, first with the ordinary (for them) tasks of hunting -- saving people who don't mean anything to them, which is not something that comes easily to Sam at first -- and then by pushing him to reconsider the family and his place within it, and the question of whether he can become what he wants and still be a Winchester. Or at least, whether he can be what he wants and still be Dean's brother. And the season culminates in Sam choosing his family over his own revenge: listening to Dean and not shooting John.

But think of "Faith": Sam has been willing to trade other people's lives for Dean's for a long time now. Sam can be very focused when he wants to be, and right now, he wants to be focused.

Sam in Season 2 was a little harder to track, because it was the season of Dean, and Dean's grief -- but it was also the season of Sam's fear, in particular, his fear of himself. And I think he's right to be afraid of himself, although not because there's anything particularly demonic about him. He's right to be afraid of himself because when he forgets to be afraid of himself, he starts killing people. Madison, Jake, now all the hosts of all these demons. And Sam doesn't care, because he doesn't have time to think of himself -- he's too busy thinking about Dean, and how to save Dean. He's selfless in exactly the wrong way.

Characters who do exactly the wrong thing because they love too deeply or care too much are a major kink of mine, so I am exceedingly happy with Sam right now. Or rather, with Sam's character arc; I also want to shake him gently and point out that his Winchester genes are leading him straight into in a whole new set of stupid choices. He is exactly as self-sacrificing as Dean or John, he's just going about it in a somewhat different way.

I wonder, a little, whether Sam thinks that if he can prove to Dean that he isn't worth it, Dean will help him find a way out of the deal -- but I think that's too Dean-like, and not the way Sam thinks. Sam knows he wants to live, and doesn't care how many rules he breaks. And really, what are a few dead demons (and dead humans) along the road, so long as he gets where he wants to in the end?

Oh, Sam. You are so smart, and yet so dumb.

Comments

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

I was always a Mary fan rather than a John fan (er, not that I think one can't be both, I just - don't happen to be). And I love the connection between Mary and Sam- whatever it is, whatever it turns out to be.

I believe too, that Sam, just like Buffy, didn't come back 'wrong', he was a bit off to start with, and now they're (Dean, Bobby, audience) just looking for excuses for him. OH KRAZY BITTER FOOLISH KILLER SAM I LOFF YOU.

[vaznetti]

I like Mary, but she hasn't hit me enough to write all that much about. But yes, I love this connection between Mary and Sam and the way they're reworking Mary's character in this season -- no longer another sacrificial victim, is she?

And yes, Sam was always like that. It's just now that Dean and Bobby have realized that they should have been nervous all along.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yeah. I just wrote a long ramble about Sam's ruthlessness being laid bare this season, when before it's always sort of been hidden or brushed off by Dean.

[vaznetti]

I think it's easier to see Dean as the "better hunter" or something -- and that would include "better at killing things," but it's totally not true. Dean has in the past covered for him a lot, but now Sam isn't letting him do so.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I thin it's also been a question of what's important to Sam - he doesn't pull the trigger on the kid in Croatoan, and he waits for Dean to come back to kill the infected mother (Dean willingly shoulders that burden) - now, with Dean at stake, Sam will be willing to do stuff he wasn't before.

[rez-lo.livejournal.com]

Yes! Even to the stepping-into-John's-place thing, in the sense that while Dean might be John's heir in maybe more obvious ways, Sam's his son, too, and we haven't seen much note of that in terms of canonical pointers.

(Though I did kind of applaud wildly when Ruby made the point, gently, that these fine hunter-men had rather neglected to pay attention to what was going on on the distaff side of things, all these years. Which might turn out to be kind of important. You know?)

I'm sort of thinking about Sam, at this point, as a puzzle that might recapitulate something about what made John and Mary a pair, or brought them together; something like that. Because I'm all about the cross-generational ramifications, I guess, and because I have a kink for characters who don't wear themselves as leather jackets or drive themselves as vintage muscle cars, if that makes sense. (I also loved Julie's line in 303, where Dean's wondering if Ben is his son, and she goes, "What can I say, I had a type." Yeah.)

Anyway, I utterly agree with you that Sam's ruthless, he doesn't feel the need to justify that when it gets him what he needs for Dean, and he's blind to the implications of that. (Hence the final scene of "Seven Crows.")

And in my bit of fanon, Dean knows this, and it makes him afraid. When he thinks about it. Which isn't often, yet. Wheeee!

[vaznetti]

This post very nearly degenerated into yet another screed about why Sam is just like John, much more than Dean is, and especially in his ability to be single-minded and ruthless, and willfully blind to the implications of that.

I think that the reworking of Mary's character in this season has some interesting implications for John and Mary as a couple -- what was she, how much did she know, and did she perhaps have some sense of what John was capable of? Because up until now I would have thought that Dean is more like Mary, but now I'm a good deal less sure. It's an interesting plot development.

I think Dean is starting to realize that he should be afraid.

[cofax7]

he forgets to be afraid of himself, he starts killing people

Oh my god: he's a Dunnett hero. *g* More specifically, he's Nicholas; Francis knows what he is, but Nicholas is pretty good at dodging that for a long time. Rather like Sam, who until this season I would have said was the more reflective of the Winchester sons. But now I'm not so sure...

[vaznetti]

Well, of course, Nicholas was reflective: he always knew what he intended to do, and he used that self-understanding to give him the advantage over everyone else. Walk a mile in their shoes, so to speak, which is meant to create understanding -- and does, it's just that Nicholas doesn't use it that way. And now I am thinking of demonic possession as the active metaphor here -- taking on someone else's skin, so to speak.

But I think Sam can argue himself out of all kinds of problems -- or rather, can argue himself into them.

*clapclapclap* Yes!

[subtly-modded.livejournal.com]

Yes! You've put things so succinctly and perfectly here! You know, for all that Dean is supposed to be starting to actually question whether Sam is really Sam this season, it's amazing how few fans are. And it's for all the reasons that you just so expertly put down.

I haven't seen this week's ep yet, but I've got to say that I haven't been all that happy with the episodes this season so far. I've got this fantasy of our boys sitting down to a big bowl of marinara and someone (Bobby?) locking them in and forcing them to talk over an old school spaghetti dinner. (No, not just for the epic food fight that would ensue, although that would be an added bonus.) One of my biggest frustration points this season has been the complete lack of information sharing between the boys. After the end of last season, this whole no-talking thing seems OOC to me.

'Course, that could just be me, acting the wishful fan...*little smile*

My other big frustration point is that everyone seems caricatured to me this year. Do you feel that at all, or is it just me? Everyone's personality is larger than life, to the detriment of the overall plot. Like, for instance, Sam's not a great liar, but now he's a *terrible* liar, and it becomes a clunky sort of comic relief and seems out of character, like he's suddenly lost abilities.

Re: *clapclapclap* Yes!

[vaznetti]

My other big frustration point is that everyone seems caricatured to me this year. Do you feel that at all, or is it just me?

I've seen a lot of people commenting on this, actually, and I agree -- everything is being played very broadly. It's most noticeable in Dean's case. The best fan-explanation I've seen is that we're seeing Dean through Sam's eyes this season, and Sam, much as he loves his brother, does still see Dean as a caricature.

I actually love the separation between Sam and Dean this year, and the fact that they really aren't speaking to each other, because I think it flows so naturally out of what happened at the end of the last season -- what Sam learned about Mary, what Dean did to save Sam's life, the fact that the YED is dead but things still aren't over. Add to that the fact that they are both John Winchester's sons, and he did not set a good example when it comes to information-sharing and, well... I don't want it to last forever, but it makes a lot of sense to me, character-wise.

Re: *clapclapclap* Yes!

[subtly-modded.livejournal.com]

Regarding the separation between Sam and Dean -- you've got a bunch of good points there. It does make sense -- I'm just so very frustrated with it. Has Dean even heard about Mary's family, yet? I could have missed something, but I don't think so, and that strikes me as a crap thing for Sam to keep from him, no matter what.

[medie]

*glee* yes! This is exactly it. I laughed when Dean worried about the "Sam coming back different". The blinders are starting to slip. Sam and his ruthlessness, *GLEE* we share the same kink you and I. Doing the wrong thing for the 'right' reasons. *glee* I'm not sure Sam can top my John-love, but I'm willing to let him try to give it a run for his money.

I love it when the gloves come off with Sam, it's just absolutely fascinating to watch. I adore how JP plays it. He goes from slouching, inwardly focusing, to standing tall and owning his size. The difference is always so very striking.

I've said this of family, but Sam? So smart he's stupid. *G*

Of course, if you start *writing* Sam fic the way you write Johnfic? I am doomed.

[vaznetti]

I agree that Sam is a long way from distracting me from John (in part, JP is just a little too young for that -- when we meet Sam he's about as old as some of my students!) But yes, I love watching the gloves come off -- those little moments when he shakes off that harmless pose, and he's so big, and so fast that... wow.

I've said this of family, but Sam? So smart he's stupid.

Yep. That's Sam in a nutshell.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

Oh WORD on this.

Sam had to be driven and ruthless to ditch his loser crazy family in the first place.

And now they've come back to haunt him and blight his life again.

And he needs to take things in hand and fix them so maybe he might be able to get out from under it eventually.

I think that's why he was so pissed at the demon this week. He really does want to see an end to it, wants resolution and some kind of life outside of crazy hunter world in the end.

He tries to get out, but they just... keep...dragging ...him back in!!!

[vaznetti]

I think you're right about him being so pissed at the demon this week, and why he was. We didn't see a lot of Sam reacting to the FBI subplot last season, but it's the final blow against his chance for a normal life. He'll always have that stain on his record, and he'll never be able to leave hunting -- at least, the criminal parts of it. And I think that logic is going to lead Sam to some interesting places, now.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

Well, he'll never be able to be a lawyer.

To be totally ruthless.

If Dean died, and there was a body, he might easily be able to turn himself in as an accessory after the fact to whatever the lightest charges are. Plea bargain down.

In his crazy youth he tried to save his evil criminal brother. Might do a little time for that and then get out and become quite a useful and successful citizen. Not a lawyer, but I bet he could do all kinds of other things in the straight world.

Could be pretty tempting. I'd sort of love to see the fic.

[vee-fic.livejournal.com]

I like your idea and would like to subscribe to its newsletter get you hired as chief writer for this season.

[vaznetti]

::snorts:: Well, when you're queen of the universe, you can get all of us to write TV shows for you.

[saberivojo.livejournal.com]

I have always felt that Sam was more John-like than Dean. I have not always been able to articulate why. Because on paper it seemed that Dean was his Daddy's boy through and through. Dean can be tough as nails, but Sam...to walk out on John and Dean, that took as special kind of toughness and fuckyouallness that Dean just does not have. And John had the market cornered on fuckyouallness.

I think you have nailed some of the concepts I have thought about for a while. I will need to ponder some more.

As much as I love Sam, I don't think he can be John for me though. I can't think of anyone who hit every, single button for me like John did. *sigh*

I guess I just have to depend on all of you wonderful fic writers to help me with my obsession.

[vaznetti]

I completely agree that Sam is much more like John than Dean is, despite the superficial ways in which Dean imitates John. Dean would never have made the two decisions John makes in the very first episode -- first, to uproot his whole family to hunt down what killed his wife, and second to disappear without a trace when it comes back.

but Sam...to walk out on John and Dean, that took as special kind of toughness and fuckyouallness that Dean just does not have. And John had the market cornered on fuckyouallness.

Yes. And obviously, John bears most of the responsibility for the way that played out, having been the adult in the situation, but it is hard for me to believe that Sam did not know exactly what he was doing, and how to push his father three steps past completely unreasonable.

I don't think Sam can be John for me either, really, but I am finding him more and more interesting.

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

There's a theory about morality that goes back to Margaret Mead's time, that says that for some people, the moral compass is internal, and for some people, it comes from an external source. At the time, the division was roughly described as the shame culture v. the guilt culture, but really, both can feel guilt--but for different things. The internally directed person feels guilt for what they do that is immoral, the externally driven guilt is for letting down the source of the moral direction, for breaking the rule.

I think in the Winchester house, Dean is driven by an internalized sense of morality, and he has chosen to take on the burden for both of them rather than expose Sam to those feelings of guilt and low self-worth for his moral flaws.

Sam's morality is externalized. It's no accident Sam wanted to be a lawyer, because the law would serve the purpose that Dean had served until then--giving him a moral direction. But with the law gone, and with Sam deciding that Dean's judgment can't be trusted on the subject of saving Dean, his moral compass has been replaced with an objective, a goal. It's not that he's a sociopath--he would be fully capable of feeling guilt in general and for letting Dean down in particular. But the letting Dean down would trump just about everything else.

John, I would think, also relied on external moral compasses, like the Marines, and possibly to some extent the Church, or Mary. but all that was burnt away in his grief, and I don't think he had much of a moral compass at all for most of the boys' lives. Hell of a goal, though.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

There's a theory about morality that goes back to Margaret Mead's time, that says that for some people, the moral compass is internal, and for some people, it comes from an external source. At the time, the division was roughly described as the shame culture v. the guilt culture, but really, both can feel guilt--but for different things. The internally directed person feels guilt for what they do that is immoral, the externally driven guilt is for letting down the source of the moral direction, for breaking the rule.

Interesting! That said, I would immediately doubt the dichotomy -- can't one person have an internal moral compass regarding certain sets of rules and an external one regarding others?

Also, v., I'm loving this review.

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

Like any dichotomy, I think the absolutes work best in theory, and real people are a crapshoot. Anyone with an internal moral compass can need to look outside when the situation surpasses the person's experience or understanding. And someone who intrinsically looks to external guidance for the moral compass can cobble together a moral position for a new situation by finding an analogy in the rules they already have.

But we've actually seen Sam grasping for an new external moral compass in season two--it's why he could be influenced by the ghost he thought was an angel. Dean never thought the entity was an angel, because he knew it was telling people to do bad things. Sam thought that because it was an angel, the things it said to do must by definition be good.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Like any dichotomy, I think the absolutes work best in theory, and real people are a crapshoot.

*g* True, so true.

And ooh, that episode is an excellent example.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Also -- fascinating comment! -- your analysis of Sam as a lawyer made me smile. Now, after so many years of study and more than a glimpse of practice, what we learned in our very first lesson was confirmed: Law is not about morality; it gives you no ethical guidance. It does, of course, set certain limits/ for moral conduct, but as all moral judgements are implied and often vague as well as arbitrary, within that framework, you still have to look away from the codes and sections and either inside (which wouldn't work for your Sam, yeah) or to others (preferably not attorneys-at-law).

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

Oh, there is no question that the law is a bad place to find your moral compass, and not all lawyers go into law to find one. But it's a danger, or there wouldn't be a warning. It's generally not conscious, though. But that is why rule-bound people like the clarity of rules, and the law is a place where rules govern behavior.

You really find it in fundamentalist religion of pretty much any kind, because fundamentalism subsumes the will, and the thus the internal compass, for a set of rules and someone else's determination of what is and is not moral

Now without doubles!

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

not all lawyers go into law to find one

I'd say most lawyers I know go into it for the money and the power securing their chances of finding a decent job. 0 ;-) But I agree that they -- we -- all have, if not an affinity to or an affection for, then at least a certain fascination with rules and regulations.

fundamentalism subsumes the will, and the thus the internal compass, for a set of rules and someone else's determination of what is and is not moral

Yes, exactly! It's the dangerous conflagration of law & morality -- from my perspective; from theirs, there is no difference, of course -- and of course, as a European, one cannot help but notice how common this still is Western society, some countries more than others.

[vaznetti]

I had thought, to be honest, that Sam saw the law as a set of tools, a way of doing things in the world. I mean, he grew up with men who used tools to fix things -- whether it's the car, or setting a ghost to rest, or killing some kind of monster. I think he walked away from the specific tools, but not from the general mindset.

But that's just my personal explanation -- I don't know how much evidence there is for it.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

I like this idea. As a lawyer who IRL knows mostly other lawyers, though, I must say this is not a very common motivator.

Still pondering if it fits my view of Sam -- more so, I think, in the context of his family, as you outline here; to me, Sam seems less driven to set things right in general than his brother (unless said brother is concerned, of course).

[vaznetti]

As a lawyer who IRL knows mostly other lawyers, though, I must say this is not a very common motivator.

Ha! No, I expect a large paycheck must figure into many people's motices. And of course, for Sam it looks like the complete opposite of everything he grew up with -- white-collor, working with his mind and perhaps his voice, on the right side of the law, etc.

I forget that kind of thing-- because when you study law from an academic perspective, "what does this do?" or "what could people do with this?" is the big question.

to me, Sam seems less driven to set things right in general than his brother

I know I used to think the same, but I can't tell, right now, whether that's mostly because that's how he was when we met him in S1 -- when he was completely focused on himself, and on the task he's set for himself.

[subtly-modded.livejournal.com]

I'm not very well studied, and so I've never heard about the theory about morality that you described until now. Very interesting. Thank you!

[vaznetti]

Was that Meade, the guilt-culture/shame-culture thing? I'd forgotten that. People use it a lot to talk about Homeric society; I didn't know they used it to talk about real people. (As you can imagine, given the splitter that I am, I find it over-schematized.) Oddly, I might argue the reverse: that Dean is externally driven, with John setting his moral direction, and that his sense of inadequacy comes from a perceived failure to live up to John's standards, not to his own inner moral compass. Sam is hard to judge, because so much of him is surface, and he's such a chameleon. I think he takes on other people's opinion easily, but I don't know how much they affect what goes on within him these days.

I hadn't thought of law as a way of finding a moral compass, for Sam -- that's interesting. I'd thought of it as a set of tools: law is something you do things with, rather than something that does things to you.

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

There was a whole crew working on the theory, but actually it was Ruth Benedict who wrote The Chrysanthemum and the Sword. The theory was used to explain Japanese culture during World War II. Japan being the shame culture, of course, and American culture being the guilt culture. It doesn't work that neatly, and certainly doesn't take into consideration the extrinsic morality of many Americans. I don't buy the extremes, and certainly don't buy that large and heterogeneous cultures can be characterized as preferentially one way or another--I don't know enough about small, homogeneous cultures to say one way or another.

As for SamnDean, I think it depends on which set of writers you are looking at. First season, I would have agreed with you, that Dean rooted his moral certainties in his dad and Sammy had his own moral center. I think once John was dead, part of Dean's dissolution was sorting out where his moral compass pointed. And Sam had to show Dean that the monsters weren't always evil, and didn't always need to be killed. Now, however, they seem to have switched roles.

Sam's craving for normalcy in the first season could be seen as finding his internal morality more clearly reflected there. I tend to see it as similar to his belief that the ghost was an angel and therefore the bad things it told people to do were okay. He saw in "normal life" a regulated, rule-defined moral compass that he needed but didn't find at home, just like the angel's instructions must be good because it was a moral authority. And it explains his terrible fear that he would go evil in second season--if he relied on external sources to determine his morality, then he might have feared the influence of the demon. But he had free choice, and he chose Dean for that role instead.

I think how a person views the law depends on what they need from it, and their experience with it. It can certainly be a tool, but tools are only value-neutral until you use them. I don't think you can listen to the debates here about what constitutes torture, and whether it is legal to use torture, and whether we need a constitutional amendment to keep gay people from marrying each other, and not realize that at least in the United States, law is indeed where we grapple for control of the moral compass.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I would argue that Dean is internally motivated, too.

You can really tell that he doesn't give a shit about what other people think by his assholish behavior a lot of the time. If he was shame motivated, he'd be worried about what everyone thought, not just what John and Sam thought. Dean essentially has no shame.

What he does have is an internalized sense of mission and responsibility toward other human beings. It's a value system where everyone in the universe is more important than Dean. Outside of religious orders, I can't imagine a culture strong enough to have that much shame-motivation on somebody. Now, this was instilled in him by John, and by the massive trauma of his mother's death, but it's coming from Dean now, when John is gone.