A little more on SPN 2x14

[vaznetti]

This is mostly spec -- and I am pretty much entirely unspoiled, so please do not be spoiling me in comments. I don't care if I'm right or wrong, at least not right now.


I am more and more convinced that the "Winchester boy" who is immune to whatever it was in Croatoan is Dean, not Sam. At least, I think it's a strong possibility. Or that the deal John made is still in effect, and has details we don't know about. Or maybe the two are connected.

One thing that I hope will come back in the long-term is the notion of trapping a demon in a human body. That's always been the other part of the problem of killing the YED -- not only do they need a weapon that will work, but they also need a way of holding the demon in a form on which the weapon can be used. Remember the scene in Salvatin, when it just disappears before the bullet can hit? There's no reason that can't happen again, even if it's possessing a human body. I really hope that when the showdown comes, we see this trick come back to haunt the demons.

Exorcism really is just a short term solution, isn't it? I mean, you send a demon back to hell for a couple of months, but if it really wants to, it crawls back out for another shot at you. I rather like the implication that demon Meg doesn't care about the master plan any more.

I think there is something weird going on with YED and the laregly hands-off approach he's taken to Sam and Dean, this year (last year, John implied that he was being hunted by demons -- this year, they don't have John-hunting to keep them busy). Maybe he's just busy in Hell torturing John, but I suspect that in general he doesn't come out much: I think he must know that it leaves him vulnerable.

I feel like I'm starting to see the outline of a plan, here.

Comments

[barkley.livejournal.com]

If Dean is the immune one in Croatoan, then what was the test? Or was this one time when Dean's picking up bloody knives without gloves at a crime scene comes in handy? (But did anyone see that? How is that a test if no one made sure it happened?)

[vaznetti]

You know, I have no idea -- and Sam is the one who (probably) gets infected by develops no symptoms. Alas, your logic is good. I just think that they introduced that final ambiguity for some reason.

[rez-lo.livejournal.com]

I thought the test was: Will he kill Sam? --wasn't it? Both times?

[destina.livejournal.com]

Maybe he's immune to external influences pushing him in particular directions re Sam. At the time I saw Croatoan, I was convinced the test was to see what Dean would do with a potentially evil Sam. And this week's episode didn't do much to change my mind.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I like the idea of Dean being the Winchester boy in that conversation, except Pam is all, "I've been waiting all day for this" when she attacks Sam, so the implication there is that it's Sam they wanted to infect and test. I dunno. I don't want Dean to be special in any superpowered way, but I think it's odd that Meg didn't possess him and hurt Sam in that guise. Surely that would have been just as painful. But Dean doesn't seem to get possessed.

I also think it's interesting that Sam immediately was able to tell that shapeshifter!Dean wasn't Dean, but Dean isn't able to tell immediately that Evil!Sammy isn't Sam. That's kind of the reverse of what I'd have expected, but I guess the expectation of Sam's destiny or whatever is playing with both their heads.

[vaznetti]

...but I think it's odd that Meg didn't possess him and hurt Sam in that guise. Surely that would have been just as painful. But Dean doesn't seem to get possessed.

I hadn't really thought of that -- but I think Meg's target here was mostly Dean, wasn't it? He was the one she really wanted to hurt, which was why driving him to kill Sam -- of his own free will -- was the plan she came up with.

I think that Dean really, really doesn't want to believe that Sam has gone bad, somehow, and that's why he didn't think that Sam wasn't himself. Although now that I type it out, that doesn't make much sense at all.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, but making Dean a helpless passenger in his own meatsuit while she tortures Sam would have been pretty awful for Dean as well.

I think that Dean really, really doesn't want to believe that Sam has gone bad, somehow, and that's why he didn't think that Sam wasn't himself. Although now that I type it out, that doesn't make much sense at all.

I think it's more that Dean will always always see every breath as an opportunity to save Sam, even if he *has* gone evil, so no situation is unsalvagable if they can only get on top of it and figure out what to do next. Hmm...

[vaznetti]

I think it's more that Dean will always always see every breath as an opportunity to save Sam, even if he *has* gone evil, so no situation is unsalvagable if they can only get on top of it and figure out what to do next.

Yes, this makes more sense to me -- Dean does a lot of damage control in this episode, and elsewhere. So for example faced with the evidence that Sam's killed a hunter, Dean's first instinct is to destroy the evidence, and then try to figure out what's going on. And part of the reason he insists on dealing alone may be that it's easier for him to control the situation that way -- he doesn't quite trust Jo to have the same priorities he does.

Well, yes, but making Dean a helpless passenger in his own meatsuit while she tortures Sam would have been pretty awful for Dean as well.

True. I wonder whether an unpossessed Sam in that situation would be too unpredictable -- would he be able to draw on some yet-unknown power, like he did in Nightmare?

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

And part of the reason he insists on dealing alone may be that it's easier for him to control the situation that way -- he doesn't quite trust Jo to have the same priorities he does.

Right. Jo would take out a possessed or evil Sam to save other people. Dean... apparently won't. Or he won't use lethal force to do so, even if the situation may call for it.

I wonder whether an unpossessed Sam in that situation would be too unpredictable -- would he be able to draw on some yet-unknown power, like he did in Nightmare?

Possible. Also possible that the demon wanted to see what Sam's powers were from the inside.

[veejane.livejournal.com]

There is a very simple reason Dean does not get possessed: hott + hott = film melts in camera.

It's a safety issue!

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I totally believe that!

It's been suggested that's why he didn't take his shirt off to be bandaged - they were afraid of blinding the audience.

[vaznetti]

I believe this!

[luminosity]

I am more and more convinced that the "Winchester boy" who is immune to whatever it was in Croatoan is Dean, not Sam. At least, I think it's a strong possibility. Or that the deal John made is still in effect, and has details we don't know about. Or maybe the two are connected.

Yes. I've been wondering about this as well, enough to have previously mentioned my astonishment that they'd spend *so much time* in Croatoan showing Dean picking up that bloody knife and, in Hunted, Dean scraping his finger against the sulfurous windowsills, etc. At first I was just worried that he was being careless and the police would find his fingerprints, but I want to believe (like Mulder) that there's a reason we're seeing this "carelessness" re Dean's touching stuff.

Related to that, I wonder, if that's not the case, has the YED foolishly discounted Dean and his impact on and love for Sam. I know it's just the big ol' Romantic in me, but I think, bottom line, the YED doesn't understand love and sacrifice at all, and has mistakenly discounted its power.

And that's all I got pre-coffee. :)

[cofax7]

I think, bottom line, the YED doesn't understand love and sacrifice at all, and has mistakenly discounted its power.

Oh, I'm absolutely convinced that's one of the themes they're playing with here. Like Buffy, Sam's surviving/evading being turned evil by YED because he's got a support system in place (Dean's a little better than a scared guy with a rock, after all), and it's driving YED crazy.

What I liked about the Meg element is that we finally got an inkling that there are various agendas at play in the demon world, and not all of them are consistent. Meg, or whatever the demon's name is, may end up interfering with YED, even though she's YED's child.

[vaznetti]

What I liked about the Meg element is that we finally got an inkling that there are various agendas at play in the demon world, and not all of them are consistent.

We saw a hint of that in Crossroad Blues, didn't we? I mean, the Crossroads Demon seems perfectly willing to cough up John for a crack at Dean's soul. But this was more confirmation, and now that Meg is floating around out there, I really hope we'll see more about it.

Unless it was just demonic misdirection!

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

the YED doesn't understand love and sacrifice at all, and has mistakenly discounted its power.

This is interesting. The YED certainly seemed pissed off that they had hurt its "children." But that could be from a tactical standpoint in that his numbers have been weakened. However, there seemed to be emotions involved, some kind of demon-bond. It was "you and your kids hurt me and my kids." So, either it was just framing it that way because it wanted John to understand how serious it was, or it FEELS something.

Now Meg!demon has said she doesn't care about the master plan and is rebelling. But she also seems to be doing that from emotional revenge reasons, not from cold tactical reasons.

Now, maybe the demons only understand anger and hate, not love, but what would bind them among themselves, if that was all they knew? YED seems to feel something for his children.

We haven't seen the demons do anything unselfish, so I think your'e right on about them not understanding sacrifice. They seem entirely self-absorbed, and that would be an exploitable weakness, just like they pick at love as an exploitable weakness in humans.

[vaznetti]

However, there seemed to be emotions involved, some kind of demon-bond. It was "you and your kids hurt me and my kids." So, either it was just framing it that way because it wanted John to understand how serious it was, or it FEELS something.

Maybe a bit of both -- it knows that talking about family is likely to get to Dean, after all. But I think we can find a middle ground between having an emotional tie and understanding love. Demons generally do see unconditional love as a weakness, but that doesn't mean that they have no emotional ties -- just that they're contingent. And the Demon might be angry that its children were hurt (or killed, in the case of the boy) because in a way, this is a blow against itself, or its pride or status. There might well be a qualitative difference between the kind of love Dean feels for Sam and the kind of love YED feels for Meg.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

And there's also selfish obsessive "tie you up and torture you to get you back" "love" (ala Spike and Dru) and real bone-deep love that is willing to sacrifice for the loved one.

I wish we had more cosmology - if angels do exist, and demons are in fact fallen angels, angels are created to love, so demons would know how, but it would have been perverted into something wrong in the fall. So. There's that.

But yeah, Dean is like this annoying fly in the demon's ointment, er, plans for Sam.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I think that likely the selfishness is what sets demons apart.

They put themselves first. It doesn't mean they don't have associations, but they're always number one.

Logically, anyway, that's how I'd look at it. I don't know we have enough canoncial evidence to support that idea, though.

[vaznetti]

You managed that before your coffee? Wow! ::does the "we're not worthy" bowing thing::

Related to that, I wonder, if that's not the case, has the YED foolishly discounted Dean and his impact on and love for Sam. I know it's just the big ol' Romantic in me, but I think, bottom line, the YED doesn't understand love and sacrifice at all, and has mistakenly discounted its power.

No, I agree, and I'm like the world's biggest anti-Romantic. YED has no idea how much of a threat Dean is to him/it. If anyone is going to come between YED and Sam, it's Dean, and YED won't even be able to see it coming, because it will be to do with how much Dean loves Sam and Sam loves Dean -- and it's seems to me that all the demons see when they see this is a weakness, something they can use to hurt Dean. But really, it's the source of their strength. (This, of course, is why from a tactical perpective, YED's decision to take John's life in exchange for Dean's was really, really dumb. Because John might have saved Sam, however we should take that, but Dean will make it his destiny to save Sam.)

[barkley.livejournal.com]

I've been wondering about this as well, enough to have previously mentioned my astonishment that they'd spend *so much time* in Croatoan showing Dean picking up that bloody knife and, in Hunted, Dean scraping his finger against the sulfurous windowsills, etc.

Yeah, you have a point! I remember the first time I saw Dean lay fingerprints all around a crime scene (Nightmare maybe?) the camera lingered on his fingerprinting, and I exclaimed, "Dean! Fingerprints!" but then two minutes later, he specifically said to Sam to wipe down the fingerprints. So I could totally buy they are doing it on purpose.

[rosekay.livejournal.com]

This might be of the product of that intense 3 year period of fantasy reading as a kid, but I'm seeing this and starting to think of Dean as being the one with the anti-power. Does that make sense? He's a blank, can't get infected, possessed, and maybe, eventually, resistant to the Children's power. We still don't know much about how bloodlines/genetics may or may not play into the melodrama, and we have no idea what Mary might have done. If you're going the romantic route, that's a lot of layers of love and sacrifice. *g*

[vaznetti]

He's a blank, can't get infected, possessed, and maybe, eventually, resistant to the Children's power. We still don't know much about how bloodlines/genetics may or may not play into the melodrama, and we have no idea what Mary might have done.

This is a really cool notion. I will have to go away and think about it some more.

[octavia-b.livejournal.com]

He's a blank, can't get infected, possessed, and maybe, eventually, resistant to the Children's power.

I just thought of the amulet too. The one that we were promised 'meant something' back in Season 1. Could be protecting him.

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

I kind of figured that Sam didn't get infected, because he is immunity boy, but Dean did get infected. But since he was locked in with Sammy, and wouldn't hurt Sammy even under the influence of a murder virus, he just got morose. Which seems to be Dean's coping mechanism of choice when bad jokes aren't working.


But I also have this theory (totally not from spoilers--my own crazy theory) that Sammy isn't the YED's soldier, he's something elses secret weapon against the YED, which the demon is trying to bend to his purposes.

And Dean is his protector, to make sure he survives to be a weapon. So maybe Dean has special brother-protecting powers. And maybe he is immune to the virus because of that. Or maybe he reacted to the virus in unpredicatble ways because he is protecto-boy.

[vaznetti]

But I also have this theory (totally not from spoilers--my own crazy theory) that Sammy isn't the YED's soldier, he's something elses secret weapon against the YED, which the demon is trying to bend to his purposes.

This is very clever -- it makes quite a lot of sense. I do think that Sam is a weapon, one way or another, and whether or not he's used by YED or against YED is very much up in the air.

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

I keep waiting for something to show up and call dibs on the tall kid with the migraines.

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

I also wonder if killing the moms of some kids wasn't a ritual to turn OFF their powers until the kids were old enough for YED to use them--and still inexperienced enough with them that the YED could twist them.

[rez-lo.livejournal.com]

And Dean is his protector, to make sure he survives to be a weapon.

ITA! It feels as though Dean's primary identity as hunter is really fading, in fact. Have I noticed a distinct absence of John's journal, by the way, or am I just not paying attention?

[concernedlily.livejournal.com]

I am more and more convinced that the "Winchester boy" who is immune to whatever it was in Croatoan is Dean, not Sam.

I'm stuck on Dean's amulet with relation to this. Bobby gives them a charm/pendant thing to prevent possession, so jewellery can have that sort of power, and Kripke did give that interview last year saying Dean's amulet had an importance we would find out. I'm clinging to that *g*.

Remember the scene in Salvatin, when it just disappears before the bullet can hit? There's no reason that can't happen again, even if it's possessing a human body.

From what we saw in DT, though, the YED was expelled from a human host in the same way as the 'junior' demons, in the black cloud. I don't know if that would extend to similar rules about what it can do from inside a body.

[vaznetti]

YED seems to be able to act even without taking human form -- I mean, it doesn't need a human host to be human, somehow. But yes, when it's in a host, it can be expelled in the same way at the others, even though holy water and the name of God don't work on it.

I want to know about the amulet, too.