comments on SPN S3

[vaznetti]

Look at the tags. Consider what you know about me. Move on if all you want is squee and flail.


Reading my friends list this morning, I felt out of step with the fandom. It's not that I didn't enjoy the episode. The things everyone is pointing to -- singing in the car, everything about Bobby, the callbacks to IMToD and earlier -- also filled me with glee. But I was left completely unmoved by the ending.

Part of the reason is that it was exactly the ending I expected, and have expected for the past few weeks. Part of it is that once you show the torments of Hell, they seem a lot less scary. Most of it, though, is that I just don't have much sympathy left for Dean as a character.

It's no secret that I've found the misogyny this season hard to take, although I haven't written about it all that much. What I didn't realize was how strongly it had affected my view of the characters, and especially of Dean. I can't think of the last time Dean said something nice to a female character. I'm sure he must have (OK, it was the virgin in the episode with Henriksen, what was her name?) but it's been drowned out by the torrent of sexist abuse he's been hurling around. Obviously, there are reasons for that abuse -- his adversarial relationship with both Bela and Ruby -- but there hasn't been enough to balance it out. I think that this is a real change in Dean's character, and it's a change that makes him a lot less likable for me.

In most of S1 and S2 I felt I could say with some confidence that Dean likes and respects women. "Wendigo" does a great job in establishing this -- of showing Dean as a guy who flirts a lot and is kind of a jerk but who, on a basic level, sees women as people who are like him. It helps that Haley was set up by the story as a Dean-analogue, but it mattered more that I got the sense that Dean himself saw the similarity, and that his interactions with her were based on a kind of instinctive liking and respect (which, because it's Dean, also includes halfhearted flirtation). That's the kind of episode I think of when I think bout Dean and girls in S1 -- Wendigo, Faith, Route 666, Providence, The Benders -- episodes where Dean interacts with female characters as people, not as things. This may start to change in S2, but I see the same Dean with Ellen, and at least some of the time even with Jo.

I can't even recognize that guy in the Dean who punched Ruby in last night's episode. Sure, she's a demon, and not technically a girl (although she's in the body of a girl, and enough people have talked about the change from their concern for Meg-the-girl in S1 to where they are now, with possessed people), and she's capable of hitting back and doing some damage. And I was very happy to see her doing that. But I didn't see Dean hitting a demon. I saw him hitting a girl. I think that the reason for this is that the insults Dean has been hurling at Ruby are so often so strongly gendered. He calls her a bitch and a slut -- he sees her as female as well as demonic -- and then he hits her.

The misogyny in the text this season has gotten so strong that I now look at Dean and think, "yeah, he'd definitely smack a woman around." I had no idea I'd reached such an explicit point, and when I think back to the character I liked in S1, it seems a real shame. So yeah, Dean's in Hell. But when I look at him, that's what's in the back of my mind, so really, I can't bring myself to care.

Comments

[cofax7]

Part of the reason is that it was exactly the ending I expected, and have expected for the past few weeks

Yes, this. Narratively and, um, show-ly (in the sense of this being a show told on television in a certain format with seasons and hiatuses and so forth), it had to end with Dean dead. Therefore I was more divorced from the emotion, just watching what would happen next.

W/rt to the misogyny issue, I have mostly been able to divorce my distaste for the writing from my fondness for Dean, but I am definitely finding myself growing away from the characters.

This is how one gives up a fandom, isn't it? Sigh.

I do feel very much out of step with the fandom, since my flist is covered with squeeing and flailing (except for you & Vee).

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I have seen almost no squeeing and flailing. But then I hang over here in the corner with the people who go after it from a narrative standpoint rather than a strictly fannish one.

[vaznetti]

W/rt to the misogyny issue, I have mostly been able to divorce my distaste for the writing from my fondness for Dean, but I am definitely finding myself growing away from the characters.

I had no idea that it had impacted my opinion of the characters as opposed to my opinion of the show. Maybe that just means I'm kind of dense, I'm not sure. And I can completely enjoy a show for the story while loathing some of the characters, so I don't know that I'm giving up or anything, but I do find that I'm not engaging emotionally. Which is sad.

But then, it's probably a miracle that I'm still here two years after John died.

[mhalachaiswords.livejournal.com]

I'm with you. When was the last time there was a female character on the show who wasn't a demon, a total victim, or portrayed as the evil bitch (Bella, I'm looking at you)? On my side, it leaves me with almost zero to identify with. I don't have anything in common with the characters, guest-starring or lead, and I'm starting to like it that way.

[vaznetti]

I realized that it was interfering with my enjoyment of the show, but somehow it didn't quite occur to me that it was also interfering with my liking for the main characters. I don't know why, really.

The kind of sad thing is that all they really needed was to keep more of Ellen and Jo in the show, as a counterbalance -- give Ellen one of Bobby's "helper" roles, for example, or a shared hunt, or something, and it would have reminded me that really, the characters aren't as hateful as I'd come to think.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I'm still invested in Dean, but I'm getting to care less about him all the time if misogyny really IS going to be a character trait.

I could have even bought the skank insults if Ruby had ever tried to seduce anybody. But she's been straightforwardly badass since she arrived. She fights and hunts. The only person we saw her try to seduce was the demoness in Malleus Malefecarum - which still makes me incredibly angry as an episode.

I can't help but believe it's because of the shift in the writing staff. They used to have TWO women. Now they have one.

And they've added a guy who has served up the VAST MAJORITY of the sexist Dean crap we've seen this season. Go and cut out the Edlund episodes and see what you get. It's a much less offensive show.

I think we should write some letters, those of us who are feeling that way. To counterbalance the "kill all the girls" crap that's on the message boards from the teenyboppers. I don't know that it will help, but at least we'll have tried and we can drop the show in good conscience.

I am THIS CLOSE to dropping it now. I'll give it a few eps next season, becuase I like what I saw of the badass Sam setup and dormant powers and I'd like to see how he gets Dean out of hell, but if the sexism continues turned up to 11, I'm done. Because that wasn't the Dean we all were invested in for 2 solid years. We have a half season of this shit, and I'm hoping they'll fix it if they get enough complaints, seeing they've written characters out of the show based on fan complaints.

[vaznetti]

The thing is that I can watch a show for the story without really caring anything about the main characters, and I do still like the story in SPN -- especially if next season we get a lot of Sam and his possibly demonic powers. But if they keep up the misogyny, even that may not hold me.

I think it's crazy that they keep trying to introduce female characters and then dropping them, even when they work. It just seems dumb and wasteful.

As for the Edlund issue -- I don't pay attention to who wrote what episode, so I'm sure you're right. But I also feel that TV shows are made by committee, and a lot of people contribute to the final product. So it doesn't seem right to me to hold just one guy responsible, since sure, he may have done the writing, but there are a whole host of other people involved in the show -- writers, directors, producers -- who have let all that sexism slide.

[loligo.livejournal.com]

In most of S1 and S2 I felt I could say with some confidence that Dean likes and respects women.

Yeah. The only reason I'm not where you are now with regard to the show is that I can hold onto initial characterizations pretty tenaciously when I don't see the changes as being organic to the story. I've managed a whole season of "BZZT! Wrong! Dean wouldn't really say that!" and I can probably squeeze out another half a season before it really starts to wear me down and I start feeling compelled to integrate the crap into my view of his character.

The sexist antagonism directed toward Ruby and Bela, that I can kind of buy. Dean grew up with (as far as we know) no female influences in his life beyond his perfect dead mother, and as a very hot guy it's unfortunately true that a lot of the women he encounters are going to choose to sexualize their interactions with him even if Dean doesn't go there first. So I can see where he would both idealize women in that sort of courtly, old-fashioned sexist way, and be over-focused on their sexual availability. Neither of these are necessarily going to cause big problems when he's dealing with women he likes and respects, but they'll turn toxic with women who are Bad and Evil (in part because being "bad" is a betrayal of idealized womanhood).

So I can kind of live with that aspect of Season 3. What's really pissing me off are the casual slams against women that the writers have been adding in all sorts of unnecessary places. Like, would Dean go to Tijuana and try to pick up hot Mexican women using cheesy pick-up lines in bad high school Spanish? Totally. Would Dean go to Tijuana and get turned on by economically exploited Mexican women forced into bestiality in tourist-trade sex shows? NO. I don't even think he'd crack jokes about it. That is some bad, bad writing.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I can hold onto initial characterizations pretty tenaciously when I don't see the changes as being organic to the story. I've managed a whole season of "BZZT! Wrong! Dean wouldn't really say that!"

Yes. This. It bothers me, but I just excise it when I write him, so I can kind of keep the Dean in my head and the Dean of season 3 separate. Of course, I also don't believe he doesn't know a lot of the shit they have him not knowing, so it's helpful in other ways, too.

[vaznetti]

I agree that the changes don't seem organic to me, but I guess I ran into my "Dean would never say that!" limit at some point this season. Maybe it's just as well that it was only 16 episodes!

Neither of these are necessarily going to cause big problems when he's dealing with women he likes and respects, but they'll turn toxic with women who are Bad and Evil (in part because being "bad" is a betrayal of idealized womanhood).

I see what you mean by this, and I think that if we'd had more balance in the kinds of women seen on the show I would be more tolerant of Dean's attitude toward Bela and Ruby (although I still find the sexualization of his attacks on Ruby weird) if I had anything else in the text to remind me that Dean doesn't think that all women are evil skanks who are only getting what's coming to them. I mean, seriously, a guest appearance by Ellen would probably have done a lot to reconcile to me to what we got.

I think that I'm a little surprised that the writing is so bad that it's made me stop caring about a character I really liked. I mean, that's unusual.

[veejane.livejournal.com]

I now look at Dean and think, "yeah, he'd definitely smack a woman around."

Not having watched last night's episode, that's the thing I've been dealing with. I don't want to think of him that way, and I don't want to look back on earlier episodes and feel like they're fraudulent, like they're the clever come-ons of somebody who secretly hates me-the-viewer in the midst of his attraction.

Which would be why I can't watch old episodes right now.

[vaznetti]

I was wondering if we were having similar issues. It's very disturbing; I haven't tried watching earlier episodes (I've lent my DVDs out, and only have the first season anyway) but I would be pretty sad if I could just never like Dean again, even in his S1 persona. Because they're practically two different people.

[veejane.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have a palatable Dean in my head, based on my own fanfic, but at this point, I'm beginning to wonder if I should be considering him an original character.

[butterflykiki.livejournal.com]

*blinks at above explanation of donkey show* Since I am ignorant enough that I had *no* idea what that was, I didn't get any impact from that. (Until now. Ugh! Bleah!) And the insults to Ruby probably had less impact because I don't like her, but they did jar me, because slutty? She doesn't even dress like Dean (or anyone's) definition of a slut. Is he getting this because she pesters his brother? What? What is that? "Bitch" has no impact with me because he calls Sam that and because I regard it in some ways as a compliment, but slutty? WUWT?

Then I got back into the show, but yeah, it's a splinter in my consciousness. Most of the time I blame the writing staff, like loligo does above, but sometimes... I just wonder if the eps I can't watch due to gross-out issues are the ones where Dean is being even more of a jerk, and if I'm idealizing him based on seasons 1& 2.

He didn't treat whatshername in the GhostFacers ep too badly, but they didn't interact much. And I look at some of his protectiveness in this ep of the possessed little girl, saying that they can't give her a 'Colombian necktie' and see the Dean I know. But yeah, I do wonder if a write-in campaign telling the writers to watch their mouths isn't at least something to try, you know?

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I know that I'm going to write them. With bitching about general treatment of women all along.

And with statistics on how many misogynistic insults per ep for Season 3.

I will post the stats once I've re-watched the season and done the count.

[vaznetti]

You should totally post these stats. Although I don't envy you the research.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

Oh, I will surely post the info.

I have to look up details for a fic, anyway, which has to be replotted becuase of Bela's death. And SPN Summergen. So it will be good for me to rewatch and mine for stuff I need.

I can also do this research at the same time.

[vaznetti]

It's weird to me how much of an effect it's actually had. I mean, I usually think that I like this show, that I like Dean, and to be there at the end thinking, "well, maybe you should think about some of the things you've been doing and saying, Dean," was kind of a shock.

I didn't much like Ruby as a character, to be honest, but I still found Dean's attitude toward her problematic.

[angryhamster.livejournal.com]

i actually liked bean hitting ruby, because i saw it as a smackdown between near-equals that gender didn't even really enter into, but there has been a definite downturn in the portrayal of women this season. bella annoyed me, but i felt her ending was very unjust, and the total absence of ellen and jo or any strong or even not-evil female chars this season left the show unbalanced, as you said, and reeking of testosterone.

i'm not sure that it's intentional, though, so much as it is trying to make the show darker and show how far the chars have come (like your point about the treatment of the meg-host vs the ruby-host) by showing how they care less about people, but the underlying point is that they're demonstrating that by using the they-don't-even-care-about-girls-and-girls-are-weak line, so... yeah, annoying.

as you said, i was not remotely surprised by this ending and have been expecting it since about halfway through the season, so yes, big let-down for me.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I didn't see the Dean vs. Ruby fight as particularly sexist, despite his dialogue. He has been consistent in reacting to Ruby as a DEMON despite the gendered insults. Plus, she was totally badass and not a victim, which is almost a first for the show.

But Bela's arc was very badly handled. She had great potential and I quite liked the character concept. She was also very well acted. There could have been great explorations of class issues and the Winchester mission vs. self-interest that were totally ignored by the writers. What a waste.

[angryhamster.livejournal.com]

i agree. i think he would have smacked around the body housing that demon regardless of the gender, and considering that the demon-ness makes you superpowered, she was not physically weaker than him, so i didn't see it as gender based bullying (plus, she was really looking for a slap, imo, with the things she was saying, and i would say that regardless of gender myself. she was totally trying to get a rise out of him).

i hated the ending they gave bella. i didn't actually like her, but i still think she deserved better than that, and that a lot more could have been done with her than to make her sexy foil for dean early in the season and then just used as a contemptible plot device later on. i liked the actress, too, and really... like you said, a waste. :/

i'll still watch s4 of course, to see how they're going to bring dean back (which i am assuming they will and i'm assuming will have something to do with sam's new powers) but i'm a lot less invested in it than i was last season. so much of this season was bitching and random emo, i just didn't enjoy it as much as the last two.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

There could have been great explorations of class issues and the Winchester mission vs. self-interest that were totally ignored by the writers. What a waste.

It sounds like there were plans to do this, but they had to throw out almost all of it to get to the Dean's Deal storyline when they lost six episodes because of the writer's strike. There was supposed to be an episode where Bela and Ruby actually interacted, and we lost that. I'm wondering if there's a chance the missing six might find their way into a comic book series, or perhaps script summaries on the DVDs, so we can know what stories should have been in there.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

Plans didn't make it to canon, sadly.

What we GOT was what was on screen and that was not satisfying.

[vaznetti]

Well, that's a shame, but I only know what I see on TV. I don't buy tie ins, I don't go look for missing scenes on line, and when I'm this disgruntled with a show, I definitely don't buy the DVDs. So all I have to go on is what they actually did.

I think that the writers strike was definitely a problem for them, but it was a problem for pretty much every show out there. Some of them did better than others in creating a good product in the end.

[vaznetti]

I still think it's a little weird that I saw the fight the way I did, because I'd agree with you that it was Ruby-as-demon that was the issue there. But Dean's language tipped it over the edge for me.

I totally agree about Bela and her arc. She was an interesting character and they really never made anything of her, and I thought her interactions with both Dean and Sam were great. She did sometimes feel like she came from an entirely different show, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[vaznetti]

i actually liked bean hitting ruby, because i saw it as a smackdown between near-equals that gender didn't even really enter into, but there has been a definite downturn in the portrayal of women this season.

I'm sure you're right about the smackdown between near-equals -- except that being a demon, Ruby is actually a lot stronger than Dean -- but for some reason I just found it really jarring, and found myself wishing that more women would call Dean on his shit.

I think it's even more worrying if the misogyny is unintentional, in way -- as if the writers and the whole staff were totally comfortable with "women are sluts and they are evil and must be put down," as a way of thinking. But I don't like it either way.

[angryhamster.livejournal.com]

i wish more people would call dean out, full stop. this season has been so lacking compared to the others, the characters are much less likeable than before. they both just sort of seem to... not wallow, exactly, but they seem less driven than before.

that's what i meant, only i didn't explain it very well. i don't like the fact that they're using gender as a plot device because it's quite revealing about their attitudes.

[zarahemla.livejournal.com]

Yes, agreed, the only redeeming thing about him is that he hesitated for ten seconds about giving a ten year old girl a colombian necktie. Nice job, boys!

The way he treated Bella last week was it for me. I was like, is he so up on his desperate fscking high horse that he doesn't remember he commits credit card fraud, lies, cheats, steals, hustles, and generally creates mayhem wherever he goes? How does he get to pass judgment on her?

I was kind of secretly rooting for him to go to Hell and there he'd find Bella (or Ruby, I'm not picky) and he'd beg her to help him get out of there and she'd be all, UH NO, and then find a way to escape and be like, LATER SUCKER.

[vaznetti]

The way he treated Bella last week was it for me. I was like, is he so up on his desperate fscking high horse that he doesn't remember he commits credit card fraud, lies, cheats, steals, hustles, and generally creates mayhem wherever he goes? How does he get to pass judgment on her?

Seriously! And this season, add "kills the innocent victims of demons while supposedly saving them." But you know, Bela is obviously a horrible person for not finding a man to sacrifice herself for, because that's the only way women can not be evil and sinful in this universe.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I've been thinking about the fact that I was sort of "meh" about Supernatural, although I did like some of it, but I enjoyed the Smallville finale a lot more Thursday night, despite some issues that I had with it. A lot of my flist has been up on Supernatural and down on Smallville lately, but I've been enjoying Smallville even more (for the most part - they still have some really bad episodes) than ever, whereas my enjoyment of Supernatural has been sliding downhill slowly (and only slowly due to my love of Sam, Dean and Bobby). I think part of that is that, not only do they have regular female characters, but in general, Smallville's been making pretty good use of them the last couple of seasons.

[vaznetti]

I haven't watched more than an episode or two of Smallville in years, I think -- I never watched it regularly at all -- but it's certainly interesting looking in from the outside at fan reactions as the show changes and the universe it's set in expands.

I wish the SPN writers etc. weren't so quick to discard female characters. What interests me is that they're clearly capable of creating interesting female characters, but having done so it seems like "kill them off" is the only thing they can think to do with them. It's very frustrating, and whereas on the one hand I do like the claustrophobia of the SPN-verse, it can be taken to extremes.

[bofoddity.livejournal.com]

Found you while searching reactions to the Supernatural-finale, and I just wanted to say I completely agree with this post. Everything about Dean has been screaming hateful to me during this season (which seems to be underlined by Jensen Ackles's acting, at least to me), and his fight with Ruby and how he got to win despite her having perfectly good reasons to beat the hell out of him made sure I felt nothing for him by the end of the episode. Which is a pity because Dean used to be so sympathetic, but it's hard to feel anything for him now.

Sorry for going all tl;dr on your journal, but I just wanted to say that I agree with you.

[vaznetti]

That's hardly tl;dr! You must have a very laconic flist.

Everything about Dean has been screaming hateful to me during this season (which seems to be underlined by Jensen Ackles's acting, at least to me), and his fight with Ruby and how he got to win despite her having perfectly good reasons to beat the hell out of him made sure I felt nothing for him by the end of the episode.

I was hoping during the fight between Ruby and Dean that she was beating him up in part to get Sam to use power to save him, but sadly, I was mistaken, and it was just a chance for Dean to get the better of her. Although when he came up with the knife, I did rather think it was a move he must have learned from Bela.

Part of the issue, too, is that JA is a relatively good actor for a show like this, so when he says these lines, he really does sound like he means them, and that impacts my opinion of the character and the whole show. But I was still surprised by how little I felt for him.

Thanks for commenting!

[bofoddity.livejournal.com]

Sometimes, but mostly I'm afraid of babbling people to death on their own journals. Glad you didn't think so, though!

With Ruby bringing up Sam's powers, it would have made perfect sense if they had re-surfaced during the Ruby/Dean-fight, especially since Sam's darkness is something they've concentrated on this season and there have been hints about his demon side still being there. The trick with the knife was something that Bela would have done, though, so it's definitely nice to think of it as a nod to her.

And the problem with Ackles is that he seems to be doing his best with Dean, so it's really Dean saying these things in my eyes, meaning that this ugliness really is a part of Dean. I know it's not how everybody feels like, but it's what makes it hard for me to think of S1-2 Dean and S3 Dean as separate beings.

[bossymarmalade.livejournal.com]

YES. This right here is exactly why my sister turned to me after one episode early in s3 and said, "We should stop watching this show before we start to hate Sam and Dean." I'm ... not exactly glad to know we made the right choice, though. Sigh.

[vaznetti]

That is a sad comment on the show, I think.

I do still enjoy it -- I like the story, and I enjoy the fandom, most of the time -- so I will watch next season as well, I expect. I just don't care about the characters the way I did in, say, the beginning of S2.

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

Although there are many things I disliked about this season, it didn't push the "I can't watch this" button quite like the decision that killing Ava would be more fun than have her be a romantic foil for Sam, or the decision that Sam should sleep with Madison and then kill her did. But those decisions underlined a fundamental philosphical problems for me--that dead girls are sexier than live girls, which is all over the television and really squicks me.

I give Dean a pass on some of the stuff he has done this season because the egregiously misogynistic comments, like the donkey show, seems intended more to make Sam angry and distract him from the desperation at hand than to express how he might actually feel, and in fact seem designed exactly to hide what he really wants. When he's not talking, but we see what he thinks and wants, it seems to be a family with a woman he can talk to and respect. But he doesn't want Sam to know that, because it would just make Sam sadder about their lives. So I sort of see the tragedy in the gaping wound of his life, between what he says and what he wants in his own head.

His response to Ruby seems tied up in Sam's reliance on her, and his fear that Sam will follow in the family tradition and give her his soul to find a way out for Dean. And the line about you all look alike, stated soon after admitting he could see demons, clearly had to do with the demon inside and not Ruby the girl.

I have a feeling that they've had to move away from the smoke-leaving demon banishing to the magical killing everything weapons for budgetary reasons--smokey columns probably cost more than a few sparkly red lights. Which is a pain. But it is easier for me to accept a budgetary shift in the mythology than to accept sleeping with girls and then shooting them, even if they are werewolves.

[vaznetti]

I think I saw Ava and Madison's deaths as due to the writing and plotting -- it didn't impact my view of the characters themselves in the same way that my view of Dean has been changed. (That is, I think that Madison's death, especially, is a sign of a slow change in Sam's character, but it isn't a change that made me care about him less or find him less interesting.)

When he's not talking, but we see what he thinks and wants, it seems to be a family with a woman he can talk to and respect.

Well, maybe. I mean, we see this in the AU episode. I just feel like I haven't seen much of it recently, and I guess that lacking that all I can do is react to what Dean says. And sure, he's playing a role for Sam, but it's not the only role in town. I was really surprised by just how much my opinion of him had changed over the course of the season.

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

I was generally disappointed in the season, because they seemed to have this idea, but then couldn't seem to actually write it. The writing seemed like a lot of shows get in later seasons-- characterization by exaggerating an established trait rather than trusting the actors to be their characters (without stupid eating tricks or other things that paint a big "this is Dean" sign on his forehead.) It's lazy, ready-to-move-on writing, and I expected better of them.

But I will admit that part of my apology for Dean is that, because the writing was generally down, I discounted any impressions of the underlying character of Sam or Dean from this year and attributed them to bad writing and reverted to the established Sam and Dean I knew before the season started.

[vaznetti]

Yeah, for some reason the "bad writing" out didn't really work for me. boofadil got me thinking above tha.t some of it is down to Jensen Ackles being a pretty good actor, so when he's playing Dean, you really believe that it's Dean, and he's been working hard all season. So, you know, it becomes hard for me to use the metatextual excuses for the character.

[camille-is-here.livejournal.com]

Yeah. There is no question that if I met this season's Dean pretty much anywhere, my reactions would be, "Nasty piece of work, so feral that not even the wolves raised him."

not, "nice guy, hard life, a hero in spite of it all."

This season it was pretty much impossible to imagine that Dean could ever have raised the Sam we have seen.

I still sometimes wish I'd stopped watching in mid-second season, when I could have walked away with a good feeling about the show.