Rome 2x05: Heroes of the Republic

[vaznetti]

I liked this Octavian because he is so clearly evil in all his scenes, but especially with Octavia and Cicero. He appears to be quite soulless, which strikes me as quite right, especially at this point in his life. Was that just me? It's hard for me to tell, because I really do despise Octavian, so he always seems a little loathsome to me. But tonight it seemed like other people might have thought he was loathsome too.

The rearranged a bunch of events here, but that's OK: 43 was a busy year, and they're just trying to tell the story, more or less. I kind of liked the sense that Octavian was pressured into the alliance with Antony, and am pleased that they remembered that Lepidus existed. Except that really, I am very sad that this will not be the miniseries with the two-man triumvirate, which would never have stopped being funny.

Oh, Cicero. I love that you never give up on the Republic, even long after everyone else has given up on it, and on you. I hope you get your death scene.

And TIRO! They put in TIRO! I had a little moment of happy geekery, right there.

The thing with the orgy totally cracked me up. AN ORGY!!!! Just when you think that the show might pass on a cliché, it goes for the throat. Next, I suppose we'll have people vomiting in a vomitorium!

So yes, the orgy was hysterical, and the writers have decided that Octavia can stand in for Julia as well, since she ended up married to Marcus Agrippa and ran afoul of her father's moral legislation. Which dates to 18 BCE. Really, the moral legislation wasn't even a gleam in Octavian's eye in 43 -- he was too busy committing adultery himself, according to report. I don't really care about Agrippa's crush on Octavia, and am rather sad that the writers have decided to make her a drug-addicted incestuous lesbian. The real Octavia is laughing in the afterlife about it, I'm sure. Well, not about the lesbianism, which probably seems like a good idea after Marcellus and Antony.

So, Vorenus. I think that queenofthorns put it best then she described his as the most embarrassing father ever. And also, the extent to which he has no idea of what's going on around him is quite impressive. I really do like the fact that his children hate him -- of course they blame him, not only for their mother's death, but also for what happened to them. And Vorenus has no idea that he needs to do more than simply say that the past is past, and can't really explain that he didn't exactly kill their mother, just because she threw herself off the ledge before he could do it himself. All of a sudden, the elder Vorena is becoming an interesting character, too -- it's her doing, I suspect, that the other two are alive, and I wonder what she had to do to keep them all together.

Last year, around this time, I predicted that Vorenus would make it into the Senate (although I didn't expect it to happen quite so fast, or end quite so badly); this year I suspect that he'll die at the end of the season. I do love the message he made Pullo carry to Octavian, although it makes me wonder how on earth a man with so little common sense survived to adulthood.

I also really liked the scene with Vorenus and Pullo's discussion of Octavian -- "your boy"! But not only do Vorenus' own children want him dead, but he's pissing off everyone else around him, and he won't want to live in what Octavian will make Rome into.

Pullo, as usual, is entirely wonderful. "You're half his weight," indeed! But Eirene's not wrong -- he does love her, truly, but he's bound to Vorenus.

To be honest, the episode felt slow -- alliances forming and re-forming, families being patched together (and whether or not the patches will hold, who knows) -- and everything in that moment of silence before the storm of triumvirate and civil war.


It occurs to me, as I type this up, that I'm not sure who the title refers to -- Octavian? the fallen consuls, Hirtius and Pansa? Brutus and Cassius, waiting in the wings? Pullo and Vorenus? Antony and Lepidus? Not, ironically, to Cicero himself -- the singular hero, not the plural. After Mutina, one can't really speak of heroes or of the republic, I suppose.

Comments

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

I suspect that he'll die at the end of the season.

I think he has made so many enemies - including Maschius now, too. And his own daughter. I would be angry with him for his cluelessness in regards to the children – I mean, I think he heard that Pullo said they’d be different, but he really didn’t absorb it - but he's so well-meaning and misguided that I just kind of have to laugh. (Even if he hadn’t cursed them, to expect them to get over finding their mother’s body in a pool of blood, thinking that their father had killed her, being sold into slavery, raped, prostituted just because HE says that they’re starting over is just ... wow!)

I love how Octavian only really shows any warmth at all when he’s with Pullo :P (And how it’s all about taking sides – Octavia, his mother, they all have to take his side – maybe this is why he likes Pullo, because Pullo has already, long ago, chosen Octavian.)

I LOVED Pullo seducing his own wife – and knowing that there was something wrong without her having to spell it out – such a contrast to Vorenus, no?

I SQUEALED when Lepidus appeared. Hee!

[vaznetti]

The more I think about it, the sadder I am about not getting the two-man triumvirate.

Even if he hadn’t cursed them, to expect them to get over finding their mother’s body in a pool of blood, thinking that their father had killed her, being sold into slavery, raped, prostituted just because HE says that they’re starting over is just ... wow!

I know! And he did curse them, and the curse came true. I mean, they can't help but believe that everything that happened was due to him. No wonder they hate him, and don't see the rescue as a sign that he loves them -- just that they had been punished enough, for whatever it was that made him turn on them in the first place.

And of course Vorenus wants it to be over and done with, because he believes that it was his fault, too -- he cursed them and defied the gods, and they suffered for it. He needs to pretend that everything can be made better, but he has no idea how to really fix it. I think that there's a lot that Vorenus can't face in himself, which makes it impossible for him to face his children.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

Oh, also, I forgot to say earlier that I think the title is an ironic play on words (Vorenus believes he's a 'hero' of the Republic because he's 'saving' it with his work on the Aventine - I love how the triumvirate of Antony, Octavian, Lepidus is mirrored by the “triumvirate” of Vorenus, Memmio and Cotta. Directly, it comes from Cicero’s letter to Brutus and Cassius calling them “heroes” of the Republic. And I suppose it could be referring (also ironically) to Antony and Octavian, since Octavian claims to be SAVING the Republic. There’s such a nice ambituity here.)

And also, am I correct in remembering that you were an “Angel” fan? If so, did you notice that Mere Smith wrote this episode? Heh! No wonder there were multiple horrible parental figures in here :P

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

err, ambiguity. I don't really know what "ambituity" is :P

[vaznetti]

I think you're right about the title being essentially ambiguous. I just thought it was ironic, that everyone is in pairs or groups of three, except for Cicero, who is both isolated and (imho, of course) the one man who probably does deserve the title in 43.

If so, did you notice that Mere Smith wrote this episode?

I did not! And I never paid attention to who wrote what episodes of Angel -- but of course Angel was full or horrible parent-child relationships, wasn't it?

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

I loved how much of a theme children forgiving parents was in this episode - and neither Octavian nor the Voreni actually meant any of what they said! Heh!

but of course Angel was full or horrible parent-child relationships, wasn't it?

I tend to think that was Joss Whedon and HIS issues, but I just found it funny that it was an "Angel" writer who wrote this one.

[vaznetti]

I loved how much of a theme children forgiving parents was in this episode - and neither Octavian nor the Voreni actually meant any of what they said! Heh!

Oh yes! That's perfect! (And neither, of course does Atia -- while Vorenus has no idea that he needs to ask for forgiveness.)

[vaznetti]

"full of horrible parent-child relationships" I mean. I cannot type today.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I don't like new Octavian as well as Pirkis. I never got the impression that the guy was actually entirely soulless. And Pirkis rode that fine line that let you think that maybe there was a person in there, not just a machine calculating odds of success, though he was always doing that, too. You could see him sucking it up to make himself do things that went against his impulse as a human being, and you could see him actually get mad and react emotionally within the bounds he'd set for himself. I found that more interesting than somebody who really is empty and a sociopath, which is how newguy is playing him.

And, yeah, I didn't like him. I think,it's because I find that viewpoint uninteresting. And I truly DO believe that even the most evil person believes they're a hero.

We're seeing that more interesting stuff with Vorenus right now. That blithe clueless doing what he MUST, Rah rah rah. So you can watch him do these horrible things and go, "yeah, I can see that." Even when it's totally stupid and setting himself up for ruin.

[vaznetti]

See, in my world, being blinded by rage whenever Octavian opens his mouth counts as good characterization, so I can't really judge. He does lack the humanity of the younger actor, but then, he's about to launch into some really horrible things, so it makes sense to me.

I didn't get the sense that he didn't think he was a hero, though. I really thought that he believed he was doing what was necessary.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

He does lack the humanity of the younger actor, but then, he's about to launch into some really horrible things, so it makes sense to me.

See, I think you have to be more human to do terrible things as a rule.

Again, look at Vorenus.

[cleverthylacine]

I really shocked a friend of mine who also has done a lot of reading in history by saying that I knew Pirkis was a great actor because he could make me sympathise with Octavian, whom I've always loathed with a passion.

I agree that Simon Woods has the loathesomeness down just so, but I'd have liked seeing a bit of how Pirkis' Octavian turned into Woods' Octavian.

[vaznetti]

I really shocked a friend of mine who also has done a lot of reading in history by saying that I knew Pirkis was a great actor because he could make me sympathise with Octavian, whom I've always loathed with a passion.

Yes, I feel the same, actually. I read The Roman Revolution at an early age, and it scarred me for life.

[cleverthylacine]

In my case it was a zillion biographies of Cleopatra--I saw the Liz Taylor movie when my age was in single digits and had a giant stupid crush on her :D

[cleverthylacine]

And then later I read about all the moral reforms. Growing up in the Bible Belt did not give me positive feelings about men who wanted to clean up society particularly when they wanted to do it by making women be faithful wives and mothers whether they wanted to or not!

[granamyr.livejournal.com]

If Vorenus had any sense, which he doesn't, he'd let Lyte take care of the children. They respond to her, and what they really need right now is mother-figure.

[vaznetti]

I don't think Vorenus wants to let go of his children at all.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

I never expected to see Mere Smith's name in the credits for this.

I am a little sad that my long-cherished dream of Eirene cutting Pullo's throat at the end of the series is so not going to happen. Vorenus being murdered by his eldest daughter would not be quite the same thing. Not that I think that is how he actually is going to go down, but down he'll go, and take Pullo with him, most like, trying to save him from drowning.

I was so amused that Vorenus remained horrible in bed, but that turned out to be on purpose.

Agrippa is so young that I have to cover my face when I watch his scenes. I remain bewildered by mousy little rodent-faced Octavia as this irresistible object of desire, but oh well.

I can't decide what I think of the new Octavian. He is disconcertingly pretty, although very willing to play completely against that with his snakelike coldness; I guess he'd be a little more human if he had more heat in his wounded vanity. The reconciliation with Atia was creepy. They are really going all-out on the Freudian explanations for the commitment to piety and virtue, I guess.

I keep wondering if young Vorena is pregnant.

[vaznetti]

I don't think Vorena will end up slitting her father's throat -- if I had to bet it would be suicide or death in battle at Actium. But I actually think that Pullo will survive and even flourish. or maybe that's just wishful thinking?

I wondered the same, about Vorena.

I remain bewildered by mousy little rodent-faced Octavia as this irresistible object of desire, but oh well.

Me too. But she's the only female character of the right age and class, I guess (even though it's funny how everyone else has aged but she hasn't). I suppose that if they bring a Livia on, what will draw Octavian will be her resemblance to Atia. (I am not really rational about Octavian, I admit, so being blinded by rage when the character comes onscreen counts as good characterization, in my mind.)

Do you think Vorenus knows that he's horrible in bed?

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

Octavia does occasionally manage to sound like Atia in a rage, and I guess the drug excesses are meant to mirror Atia's madness for sex in some way, so maybe Livia will mirror both of them. Atia more, I hope, because Octavia is so boring. I'm just so fond of Atia. I couldn't even be put against her overseeing Servilia's torture and rape because the entire fight had gotten so over-the-top and cartoonish.

(If Timon thinks changing his mind *after* whipping and raping Servilia means she won't tear him to pieces, he's a fool. If he's lucky she won't murder his wife and children first.)

I would really love to see a Rome vid all about the women.

Do you think Vorenus knows that he's horrible in bed?

I don't think he cares. I expect he improved a bit after Pullo gave him the useful advice about the "button" and once he and Niobe learned how to communicate with each other, but for anyone else--and it seems likely the woman whose name I've never caught is not only the first woman he's slept with since Niobe died but the first woman he's slept with besides Niobe ever, given what he said to Pullo in S1--he sees it as a business transaction/self-punishment/punishment of the woman because she isn't Niobe.

I don't think Vorena will cut her father's throat, either; she'd have tried for that first if she'd been foolish enough. She has some of her mother's pragmatism, I think. But eventually Vorenus is going to be forcibly unblinded, and I expect it to relate to his death in some way, if only in contributing to suicide.

[vaznetti]

I figure that Timon is basically dogmeat at this point in the story. If he's lucky, Servilia will forget that he exists (or be killed before she can do anything about it), but he's probably not that lucky.

I'm sure you're right about Vorenus and Vorena. I like how much she's like Niobe, actually, both in looks and in her demeanor.

I guess the drug excesses are meant to mirror Atia's madness for sex in some way

Oh! Somehow I had missed that completely, but it makes a great deal of sense.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

I don't think Vorena will end up slitting her father's throat

I think she might hold him down while someone else does it (metaphorically or literally!) Or perhaps she'll become reconciled to him eventually, but ... I know it's not the Vorenus way, but I STILL think that, like Atia, he should have begged his children's pardon for what happened to them. Maybe that would have given them some kind of different view of him. (I know, it wouldn't be very Roman paterfamilias of him, but his idea of treating them gently is kind of wide of the mark!)

[granamyr.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I mean, he had to announce to the whole world (i.e. the brothel) that Vorena had been a sex slave? How crass is that?

[vaznetti]

Oh, good god yes. He needs to beg their forgiveness, and generally stop being such a complete idiot. I understand that he can't really explain what happened between him and Niobe (although the whole "oh, and the boy's not mine" speech might have been a clue), but he's just hopeless.

[cleverthylacine]

I don't get why they've done what they've done with Octavia. I like her better than I like historical Octavia, but she's so not even remotely close to being the same person!

[vaznetti]

I know! I don't get it either, frankly. How on earth we get from this Octavia to the one who raised all of Antony's children is a complete mystery!

[cleverthylacine]

Seriously. I have no idea how they are going to pull that off. IF they are trying to merge her with Julia, that's dumb, because it'd be hard to find two people more different. Well, okay. Merging Octavia with Messalina might be even sillier, but you get the idea.

[ethrosdemon.livejournal.com]

Do you hate Octavian because of the collapse of the Republic or for other reasons? As far as the show goes, I am conflicted because I really hate his attitude (personality), but the actor looks so much like he could be Paul Bettany's son that I have a hard time not enjoying him (also his ability to mimic Max P is really stunning).

It's too bad you have no love for Agrippa. I find the actor quite charming. I think it's because he's got the beef noodle hearty thing going on along with not a small amount of what comes off as naivete.

Sorry about the spam. I think you and qot are the only people on my fl who watch this show, so you get all my stalking (with the added benefit that you can answer all my questions).

Something I find curious is that I am not entirely sure that MA isn't in love with Atia here. I wonder if that's why they've decided to shift Octavia into the Julia role because at this point the tension will be greater when MA runs off with Cleopatra (I am assuming Atia lives). I mean, they already jacked up Octavia's story so much that what difference does it make if they marry her to Agrippa and have her be a drug-addicted whore who gets exiled?

What the hell is up with the African (assuming) serving girl?

[vaznetti]

I totally love Agrippa! Well, I love the historical Agrippa, and this one is not at all bad. It's just that I read a comment pointing out how much he looks like Sam Gamgee, and now whenever I see him I think, "nasty fat hobbit," which is really kind of unfortunate.

I wonder if that's why they've decided to shift Octavia into the Julia role because at this point the tension will be greater when MA runs off with Cleopatra (I am assuming Atia lives). I mean, they already jacked up Octavia's story so much that what difference does it make if they marry her to Agrippa and have her be a drug-addicted whore who gets exiled?

This is very clever! I like it a lot, at least from a storytelling perspective. Plus, it means that they don't have to worry about the marriage to Scribonia. (Part of me really wishes that the writers had more respect for the political history and for the audience's ability to follow the political history, and the rest of me is rolling around saying things like "HAHAHAHAHA! ORGY!")

I guess it's a little weird to me that they've decided to add a bunch of stuff into the drama, considering how much they've decided to cut. But if it makes a good drama, then I'll be happy with it.

What the hell is up with the African (assuming) serving girl?

The girl Vorenus sleeps with? Or someone else?

[ethrosdemon.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the girl Vorenus sleeps with. I think she's african and the whole elephant thing was some kind of ruse on her part. I don't think there's any reason to introduce that into the narrative elsewise. I wonder if she's somehow involved with Cleopatra and will become far more important to the story soon.

I think with the Octavia/Julia plotline it's probably a matter of managing the size of the cast. They have so many main characters already that from a media perspective they were probably trying to limit their entanglement issues. A lot of big historical pieces have tanked because they didn't minimize their cast issues (internal dialogue of the makers, personally, I am neutral on the topic). It's probablly an issue of tv/movie making convention. HOWEVER, that being said, I will ADORE Octavia if she becomes Julia and takes on Augustus in full pomposity. I wonder if that's where they're going. I suppose it depends on if they get a third season.

Why I hate Octavian

[vaznetti]

I think it's not so much the final destruction of Republican government (because frankly, the Late Republic wasn't an ideal political system by a long shot, although I think it was probably still better than even a benevolent dictatorship) but the hypocrisy of his actions after Actium -- the erasure of Octavian, the opportunistic thug into Augustus, the stern and upright defender of old-fashioned values. One day, you're commanding armies at 19 and demanding all kinds of illegal honors, and the next you're going on and on about the importance of traditional morality.

Plus, stabbing Cicero in the back like that doesn't endear him to me, even though Cicero would certainly have done the same if he could have. And there's the sack of Perusina (Perugia), after which he is said to have sacrificed 300 men to the deified shade of Caesar. I believe that, in part because almost no one ever talks about it except in the most roundabout way.

I don't know -- most people in ancient history are not exactly likable, but something about Octavian really rubs me wrong. He's like biting into an apple and finding it rotten on the inside.

Re: Why I hate Octavian

[ethrosdemon.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes. The "family values" thing I think is a sore spot for Americans of a certain age and political leaning (us).

The concept of other human beings in antiquity is one of the issues that drove me away from the topic. I find the general disconnect too vast. (That was always a problem for me even before I encountered Foucault.) I would love to talk to you about this some time, actually, because I'd love to get the perspective of a scholar who has spent so much time with these people, how do you relate to them as individuals at such a remove? If you do at all, I suppose.

Thank you for giving me an opportunity to talk about this.

Re: Why I hate Octavian

[vaznetti]

The concept of other human beings in antiquity is one of the issues that drove me away from the topic. I find the general disconnect too vast.

I really love them. It's easier with the Romans, who are horrible but in familiar ways; sometimes I find the Greeks just a little too alien. But doing classics is like any kind of cultural immersion -- you start to see how the other people think, even if it isn't in patterns which seem natural to you, and you can't really help being carried along by it, just a little way. And it's a challenge, to try to get your head around a culture (or a set of people) who can say "not to be born is best for humans, and never to look on the light of the sun" and mean it -- but there's the moment of fluency where everything slots into place, at least for a moment. Historians, like anthropologists, are always at risk of going native.

And I hate them as well -- I think we all do. I hate the Greeks more than the Romans, actually, which I felt for a long time meant I shouldn't study the Romans. I don't think it's illegitimate to judge their manifold failings (although I think it would be to do so while pretending that my own society is perfect): that's part of what historians ought to do. That's what makes what we do matter, or at least, part of what makes what we do matter.

But I never doubt that they're individuals -- I don't think you can, when you're immersed in what they've created. It's too idiosyncratic -- Cicero's correspondents, for example, or Tacitus, or Horace, they all leap off the page as people. You may loathe some of them, but they're very real.

Re: Why I hate Octavian

[ethrosdemon.livejournal.com]

I understand your feelings about the Greeks, because I feel it myself. I've had very particular ideas about Greece as Western and the seed of our own culture for a long time (in that I think that's a tautology and not very well thought out because their thinking was so very different from our own, but we are taught this is not true--this is a holdover from our early modern period, I think, in large measure).

Now I am facinated. My education is skewed to Greece and the near east, so I've never really spent much time with Rome in a deep way because I always thought of them as vulgar and rapacious--which I think, on reflection, wasn't even my own opinion but probably something I was reflecting back from my early education. Yay for something new to obsess over!

[litalex.livejournal.com]

I think the title might be to highlight the fact that there are no heroes of the republic left?

oh, what do I know. I watch it for the pretty.

I actually find this episode a lot more...exciting than the last one, despite nothing major really happening... It certainly pushed many more of my buttons. :D

[vaznetti]

I think the title might be to highlight the fact that there are no heroes of the republic left?

I am certain that you're quite right about that.

Hunh -- it really felt much slower than last week to me. How interesting!

[tabula-x-rasa.livejournal.com]

The new Octavian this week struck me right away as "sociopath" so I was considerably happier with the casting than after the first time we saw him. The scene in the Senate was incredible-- he's already got some sort of divus Augustus thing going in his head.

And I am now going to spend the rest of the season in dread of Vorenus dying.

[vaznetti]

Oh, well, I'm sure Vorenus won't really die. (Actually, I'm not sure of that at all; I think he's marked for it, although there's always the hope of a last-minute save of some kind.)

The scene in the Senate was incredible-- he's already got some sort of divus Augustus thing going in his head.

I know! He's sort of snakelike, and was looking at them like so many mice. I liek the way they're mixing the different stages of Octavian/Augustus' life, although I think it makes him seem even more of a sociopath.

Your icon cracks me up to no end.