vaznetti: (god will dance for john)
[personal profile] vaznetti
This is not the meta I'm supposed to be writing, but it is something I've meant to write for a while.

I've said a few times that while Sam and Dean may well be Greek, John Winchester is a Roman through-and-through. And then I forget that other people might not know exactly what I mean by that, so here it is.

1. Husbands and wives.

In book 2 of the Aeneid, Aeneas loses his wife and promptly rushes right back into a burning city full of men who want to kill him to look for her, and refuses to leave until her ghost appears to him, assures him that she's OK, and tells him to get the hell out before something bad happens to him. This struck me as a very Roman thing to do -- first, to expect your wife to be able to look out for herself, but also, to go back for her. I contrasted Aeneas' actions with what one might expect from a Greek hero -- who would certainly run into a burning city to rescue a male friend or relative, but probably not a wife (which is probably related to the way the heroes in Greek myth are always worried that their wives are going to try to kill them.) Roman marriage was a good deal more of a partnership than marriage in most other ancient societies, and affection and devotion between husband and wife were, if not always present, at least not considered a sign of moral deviance.

I do have Aeneas in the back of my mind when I think about John, much of the time -- the way they both lose everything at the same time as they lose their wives, the utter helplessness of their grief -- Aeneas reaching out to Creusa three times, and three times having her shade slip through his fingers -- the way they have to remake their lives into something they would never have wanted for themselves, the way their sons serve to keep them moving forward.

Aeneas says, once or twice, that the men who died at Troy were luckier than him; I suspect that if it weren't for Sam and Dean, John would wish himself dead with Mary, as well.


2. Paternal power

Even the Greeks, who were pretty big supporters of patriarchy and its works, thought that Roman fathers had an excessive amount of power over their children.[1] A child whose father is alive legally owns no property -- a daughter might be given a dowry or a son might be given an allowance to live on, but they don't really possess that property. They may act like adults out in the world -- a man might hold office or serve as a soldier or have a public career of some sort -- but within the house they're not adults; they're just part of the father's estate. The Latin for this institution is patriapotestas, which just means "paternal power." They sometimes guessed that most of their public institutions were rooted in it or related to it somehow.

Like most fathers in the ancient world, the Roman father has the right to decide that a newborn child should be exposed (in other words, be left outside to die); unlike other fathers, a Roman father supposedly had the right to kill a child at any later time as well. In point of fact, we have almost no evidence that this ever happened; in the stories we do have in which fathers kill their sons, the father is always acting as a magistrate (an elected official) and punishing a public crime, like treason. We have one example of a father killing a daughter, but it's represented as a horrific and desperate choice. Fathers do have a range of other domestic punishments available -- sending children off to the countryside in a kind of exile, for example, or cutting off that allowance -- and can apply them for any kind of reason, although it was usual to get advice from friends or family before doing anything. Ultimately, though, a Roman father's power is absolute and autocratic, and remained constant until he died: a man might be consul (that is, hold the highest office in the Republic) and still owe his father absolute obedience.

At the same time, it's clear that Roman fathers took their responsibilities to their children very seriously: a Roman father who decides to educate his children himself rather than buying or paying a tutor for them is considered to be doing the right thing. Fathers were responsible for how their children turned out, in the end, and wanted their sons in particular to be like them or better than them. Roman fathers appear to have paid a lot of attention to the happiness of their children, as well, both sons and daughters, and it's very clear that absolute paternal power could be accompanied by unconditional paternal love. If Roman children are in some way just dependent offshoots of their father... well, that has two sides.

Incidentally, I use "children" on purpose. Sons might come in for more paternal pressure than daughters did, but it's clear that fathers had very strong emotional bonds to daughters as well -- perhaps even more than sons.

Do I even need to explain how John fits into this? Obsessive, autocratic, controlling and, one rather feels, almost unable to draw a line between himself and his sons -- except by disinheriting the one who tries to claim his independence, which is also a typically Roman reaction. It was an all-or-nothing kind of world.

I remember as well that some of the commentary on John's decision to sacrifice his life for Dean's in IMToD described it as... well, as John taking away a choice from Dean. Something about him being autocratic even in death. Of course, from the Roman perspective, Dean doesn't actually get a choice about whether he'll live or die -- the choice is his fathers, not his. I suspect it didn't even occur to John that Dean should have a say in the matter. That's why they call it the power over life and death: if Roman fathers had had a way to grant life to their sons other than the obvious, they would have used it too.

[1] This is because for the Greeks, patriarchy is about women, whereas for the Romans it's about children; by the Late Republic, Roman men appear to have pretty much given up on telling their wives what to do. Wives are perhaps the only people within the immediate family with whom Roman men can have an equal relationship.


3. War, duty and love

The most important quality a Roman man can have is virtus; this gets translated as "virtue" sometimes, but it's really military excellence rather than moral excellence. The Romans prided themselves at being good at warfare (as well they should: they didn't conquer the whole Mediterranean world by accident), and they organized their political system, at least in the early Republic, around the military. But virtus isn't about pure force -- it's moderated by discipline and by that other peculiarly Roman virtue, pietas.

The thing about pietas is that it means duty and it means love: the Romans sometimes have trouble telling the two apart. That probably has something to do with the way Roman family relationships involve love and obedience in equal measure, and that translates into Roman public life -- you owe a duty to the state and to the gods as well as to your family, and the three are equally important. And (coming back to Aeneas), if what you want, or what will make you happy, isn't what these demand, well, too bad. Aeneas would rather have died at Troy, have founded a little copy of Troy somewhere in the east, have stayed with Dido -- well, tough. That's not what Rome needs.

That John falls back on military values when his world turns upside-down is pretty clear to me. But I think that the balance between love and duty -- or rather, the inability to disentangle the two -- is also very typical of John, especially in his relationship to his sons -- the way keeping them safe is such a high priority for him that he seems to sacrifice his emotional closeness to them. He doesn't distinguish between his love for them and his duty to them, or theirs to him, whereas they do see a distinction (see John's response to Sam's desire to be his own person). Throw in his compulsive need for them to match his virtus (Roman fathers want their sons to outdo them), and I think you have the values John has tried to transmit to his children, by his own example.

Pietas sometimes seems an unappealing value: it's not a gentle kind of love. It's more about what you need than what you want, and if it takes your life, well, it takes your life. There's you, and there's what's necessary, and there's what you have to sacrifice: the thing is that the Romans see that as love. And so, I think, does John.


So yes, a Roman through and through, or at least, a particular kind of Roman: the kind of Roman the Romans liked to think they were. No wonder I fell hard for the character.
Page 1 of 2 << [1] [2] >>

Date: 2007-01-22 01:05 am (UTC)
rhi: LaCroix in the darkness, a green 'live' light on his face.  "Nightcrawler" (Lacroix)
From: [personal profile] rhi
I'm not even watching this show, and so what, I love this explanation! {{hugs}} Thank you!

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] rhi - Date: 2007-01-22 03:22 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] rhi - Date: 2007-01-22 04:05 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] rhi - Date: 2013-07-20 10:50 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] rhi - Date: 2013-07-21 03:08 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] devohoneybee.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-01-22 05:24 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-01-22 01:20 am (UTC)
ext_1310: (don't you know daddy's coming)
From: [identity profile] musesfool.livejournal.com
*hearts this post*

it's not a gentle kind of love. It's more about what you need than what you want, and if it takes your life, well, it takes your life. There's you, and there's what's necessary, and there's what you have to sacrifice: the thing is that the Romans see that as love. And so, I think, does John.

Yes. Exactly.

Oh, John.

Date: 2007-01-22 01:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k2daisy.livejournal.com
Your students are lucky, lucky people.

Date: 2007-01-22 01:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rosekay.livejournal.com
Haha I appear to be stalking you today or something, but every time I stop back to check my email or flick through the flist, you seem have to posted something fascinating.

Seriously, I am in love with you for this. The combination of pietas and patriapotestas is possibly the best explanation of John's actions I've ever heard. The idea of patriapotestas is so in line with the show in some ways, that a daughter can find a way to marry out of her father's family, but a son is stuck under that thumb forever. I'm thinking of all these single mothers and strong women Sam and Dean sort of flash past on the road, freeing them from their literal monsters, but the two of them trapped in this loop of John's power forever, even after his death.

And John - unable to distinguish between duty and love. His essential disowning of Sam, and the handling of Dean's near death. You lay it out so beautifully. I love that idea of him as Aeneas, pater Aeneas, scrabbling to remember Creusa, sort of bound by the dead. And I can really see him - John that is - finding a Dido figure at some point and just forcing himself to move on. Sam's betrayal feels like a betrayal, because in a way, John's sacrificed everything for his (Sam's) future.

Sort of extrapolating from this I guess, you could cast the tense relationship between father and sons on SPN as a conflict between Greek and Roman values. Sam coming of age and needing to strike out on his own. Dean operating on this exalted sense of love and emotion. Hector could have his emotional moment with Andromache, and leave to die, abandoning his son and that future. John can't - he's already traded one for the other.

So basically, rawwr, you're amazing. And my John love has inched up because of this.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rosekay.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-01-22 02:21 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] rosekay.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-01-22 04:22 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-01-22 01:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] camille-is-here.livejournal.com
for some reason, this explanation also made me think that Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum is maybe more historically accurate than I ever would have thought!

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] camille-is-here.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-01-22 02:33 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-01-22 01:53 am (UTC)
fufaraw: mist drift upslope (Default)
From: [personal profile] fufaraw
Thanks for this. I don't have the classical background I should do, but from the smattering I have, and your post, this theory of how John operates suddenly seems very clear. It doesn't make me love John any more than I already did, but it certainly helps illuminate an aspect of him that I'd merely taken at face value. I like that you make me think.

Date: 2007-01-22 01:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angelcure.livejournal.com
Thanks for this amazing explanation. It fits the character too well. I love John dearly and this historical perspective makes me see him in a more complex way. He's not a bad person, and he does what he think is right all the way.

"I suspect it didn't even occur to John that Dean should have a say in the matter"
Yep, just like he never thought Sam had a different idea about leaving home.

Date: 2007-01-22 02:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angelcure.livejournal.com
Is it okay to add you to my friends list? Your journal is very cool!

Date: 2007-01-22 02:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] loligo.livejournal.com
Fascinating!

Date: 2007-01-22 02:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dagnylilytable.livejournal.com
I'm amused that between my four years of Latin in high school and my discussions of the family in late antiquity last semester, I was able to nod right along with this. Somehow I don't know that the professor who reviewed this material with us would be too shocked- I know one of the Americanists in the history dept is an SPN fan.

Anyway, I love this post because it perfectly encapsulates the conflicts between John and Sam and why they are the way they are. And I also love it because in my head, Sam took Latin and maybe some Roman Civ at Stanford.

Date: 2007-01-22 03:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cuissesdefer.livejournal.com
I love John, I love Rome, I LOVE YOU! Thank you so much for this absorbing and interesting read ♥

Date: 2007-01-22 03:48 am (UTC)
celli: a woman and a man holding hands, captioned "i treasure" (Winchester boys)
From: [personal profile] celli
This is just fascinating. What a great perspective on John. I want to rewatch some S1 eps with this in mind.

Hey, are you a member of [livejournal.com profile] spn_heavymeta? I know they'd love to weigh in on this with you.

Date: 2007-01-22 04:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thepiratequeen.livejournal.com
This was really interesting. I haven't really been able to connect with Supernatural on anything more then a shallow level but this makes me want to go back and rewatch the first season.

First I have to track down tonight's episode of Rome cause I just read your review and it made me really impatient.

Date: 2007-01-22 04:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] se-parsons.livejournal.com
Wow, I like that. And with all the Latin on the show...

Date: 2007-01-22 06:26 am (UTC)
ext_36862: (Default)
From: [identity profile] muridae-x.livejournal.com
I love this theory. And it definitely enriches an understanding of what makes John tick.

And now, since I'm actually up to date with Supernatural I shall have to go off and get caught up on Rome.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] muridae-x.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-01-22 05:38 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-01-22 08:19 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
This is really fascinating. I took Latin and Greek in high school,
and you make me want to go back and read the Aenied again.

You said in the intro that you think Sam and Dean are kind of Greek,
and I was wondering if you've ever written any meta about that,
because I would love to read it if you have.

(no subject)

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2007-01-22 06:57 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-01-22 10:42 am (UTC)
ext_5650: Six of my favourite characters (Default)
From: [identity profile] phantomas.livejournal.com
I allowed myself to read one SPN related item before work, and this was definitely the one to read.

All the parallels you highlight are spot on. John is a Roman, no doubts; I know how difficult it is to definite Pietas, and as you said, not a gentle kind of love at all. Roman love is harsh and bound by duty, yes.

Great, to keep, entry, thank you. :D

Date: 2007-01-22 12:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lilacsigil.livejournal.com
This is a fascinating look at family archetypes and a very useful way to look at a family that lives very much in a military formation - unlike a modern military family, the battle is not a career, but their entire lives.

Date: 2007-01-22 01:44 pm (UTC)
tabaqui: (johnbychar_cohen)
From: [personal profile] tabaqui
Ooh, so very, very interesting. I know very little about the Romans day-to-day sort of 'stuff' and probably less about the Greeks but this is really very revealing.

Did you do a similar meta on the the boys and Greek values?

*bookmarks*

Date: 2007-01-22 03:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ultraviolet9a.livejournal.com
I think I'll second the anonymous comment's request. I'd be very interested to hear your opinion on why Sam and Dean are Greek. *nods wisely*

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ultraviolet9a.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-01-22 05:28 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-01-22 03:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kerlin.livejournal.com
There's a whole book waiting to be written on the transmutation of the Roman ideals of war and duty to the later chivalric ideals. I think the changes in the concept of virtus alone (say for example to look at the handful of chivalric texts actually written in Latin) are incredibly complex and fascinating.

...see, now my mind is running off on a whole tangent on sacrifice and Roman sacrifice versus medieval sacrifice because of the introduction of Christianity and...

...wait, this post was about Supernatural?

Date: 2007-01-22 05:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] netninny.livejournal.com
Here via [livejournal.com profile] musesfool...

What a fascinating read--very thought-provoking!

Date: 2007-01-22 05:45 pm (UTC)
innie_darling: (dean is a man of sorrow)
From: [personal profile] innie_darling
"autocratic even in death" - that is BRILLIANT!

Date: 2007-01-22 06:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] merrycontrary.livejournal.com
I wish I had something intelligent to say about how amazing this is, but alas.... I loved John before this, I'll love him after, but now I can explain it to people in ways that make me sound smart. Thank you!

Also, I now have a very strong desire to go reread King Lear - which isn't even one of Shakespeare's "Roman" plays, but is so much about patriapotestas (and even a bit about pietas) that it stings. I've always had a bit of difficulty sympathizing with Lear. I am hoping that reading it with this in mind will help.

Date: 2007-01-22 07:01 pm (UTC)
kernezelda: (spn fast lonely)
From: [personal profile] kernezelda
John Winchester and Roman values aren't two things I'd ever have thought to bring together.

This is a marvelous post.

Page 1 of 2 << [1] [2] >>

Profile

vaznetti: (Default)
vaznetti

May 2025

S M T W T F S
    123
45678910
11121314 151617
18192021222324
25262728 293031

Most Popular Tags

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags
Page generated Jun. 7th, 2025 02:06 pm
Powered by Dreamwidth Studios