Religion and Proselytism
Dec. 9th, 2004 06:52 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
vaznetti::takes a deep breath::
I've been talking about religion off and on with various people on livejournal over the past few days, and "listening" to other livejournal conversations on the subject. Then, earlier today had an encounter with a Well-Meaning Proselyte. Well-Meaning in the sense that I don't think she was trying to offend me, and I decided not to be offended by it.
One of the things that struck me as I read was the difficulty of certain Christians in understanding why others can find proselytism offensive; equally, it seems to me that just saying, "Why can't you see that it's offensive?" doesn't get us anywhere. So here an attempt to explain why I find Christian proselytes offensive in principle, rather than annoying. This may just be me, of course; other people, Jewish, atheist, pagan, whatever, may well read this and think, "Nope, that's just her. What a nut!"
The offense isn't to me. I can smile and brush off the suggestion, or explain politely that I'm not interested, and generally people will understand that and and leave me alone. People who keep trying to persuade me are another matter, but again, I'm capable of cutting off a conversation that I don't want to have.
The offense stems from the suggestion that there is something missing in my life because I do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and that because of that, I am Not Right With God. Again, the offense is not to me, personally--there are any number of ways in which it's very likely that I am Not Right With God, although I would maintain my failure to embrace Jesus as my savior is not among them. And even granted that this be grounds for personal offense, I'm a grown woman and I can take a certain amount of abuse.
I feel differently about insults to my family; indeed, an earlier draft of this had "but no one insults my family," written in bold and all-caps. And the suggestion that I'm missing something implies that they too are (or were) missing something--and that is offensive to me. The mere suggestion that someone as good and kind as my grandmother, or my uncle who passed away over the summer, was missing something so intrinsic that if there is a Heaven she isn't there, merely because of her religion--that's deeply insulting to her. The suggestion that all my ancestors, no matter how they lived their lives, were somehow Not Right With God because of their religion is offensive. Even more so, the suggestion that the cousins who were lost in the Shoah were "missing" something. And even more than that, the suggestion that all those who died kiddush ha-Shem (for the sanctification of God's Name, that is, for their religion) died for nothing. That is unutterably, appallingly rude. Those people were Right With God. I know that in my bones. To suggest that I am missing something, because of my religion, is to suggest that all of them were missing something. That they were mistaken. That they were, in some deep way, wrong. Not only do I not believe that, I am offended by the very suggestion. Metaphorically, the invitation to become a Christian is an invitation to spit on my ancestors' graves. I would rather not, and don't think that this is a decision which requires further explanation.
I understand that Christians may disagree with me on all these points. Perhaps proselytes have a different definition of politeness, but I was taught that insulting other people's family members is unacceptable behavior. Small children do it because they don't know any better; as adults, we learn to keep some of our opinions to ourselves. As adults, of course, we are also free to choose to offend each other, and to ignore behavior which is offensive to us. I usually manage the second response, but wonder if it's wrong that I should feel obliged to. And then again, what is the appropriate response to a suggestion to which I react with such bone-deep horror?
So. Crazy? Incoherent? Offensive? I leave that to the rest of you.
I've been talking about religion off and on with various people on livejournal over the past few days, and "listening" to other livejournal conversations on the subject. Then, earlier today had an encounter with a Well-Meaning Proselyte. Well-Meaning in the sense that I don't think she was trying to offend me, and I decided not to be offended by it.
One of the things that struck me as I read was the difficulty of certain Christians in understanding why others can find proselytism offensive; equally, it seems to me that just saying, "Why can't you see that it's offensive?" doesn't get us anywhere. So here an attempt to explain why I find Christian proselytes offensive in principle, rather than annoying. This may just be me, of course; other people, Jewish, atheist, pagan, whatever, may well read this and think, "Nope, that's just her. What a nut!"
The offense isn't to me. I can smile and brush off the suggestion, or explain politely that I'm not interested, and generally people will understand that and and leave me alone. People who keep trying to persuade me are another matter, but again, I'm capable of cutting off a conversation that I don't want to have.
The offense stems from the suggestion that there is something missing in my life because I do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and that because of that, I am Not Right With God. Again, the offense is not to me, personally--there are any number of ways in which it's very likely that I am Not Right With God, although I would maintain my failure to embrace Jesus as my savior is not among them. And even granted that this be grounds for personal offense, I'm a grown woman and I can take a certain amount of abuse.
I feel differently about insults to my family; indeed, an earlier draft of this had "but no one insults my family," written in bold and all-caps. And the suggestion that I'm missing something implies that they too are (or were) missing something--and that is offensive to me. The mere suggestion that someone as good and kind as my grandmother, or my uncle who passed away over the summer, was missing something so intrinsic that if there is a Heaven she isn't there, merely because of her religion--that's deeply insulting to her. The suggestion that all my ancestors, no matter how they lived their lives, were somehow Not Right With God because of their religion is offensive. Even more so, the suggestion that the cousins who were lost in the Shoah were "missing" something. And even more than that, the suggestion that all those who died kiddush ha-Shem (for the sanctification of God's Name, that is, for their religion) died for nothing. That is unutterably, appallingly rude. Those people were Right With God. I know that in my bones. To suggest that I am missing something, because of my religion, is to suggest that all of them were missing something. That they were mistaken. That they were, in some deep way, wrong. Not only do I not believe that, I am offended by the very suggestion. Metaphorically, the invitation to become a Christian is an invitation to spit on my ancestors' graves. I would rather not, and don't think that this is a decision which requires further explanation.
I understand that Christians may disagree with me on all these points. Perhaps proselytes have a different definition of politeness, but I was taught that insulting other people's family members is unacceptable behavior. Small children do it because they don't know any better; as adults, we learn to keep some of our opinions to ourselves. As adults, of course, we are also free to choose to offend each other, and to ignore behavior which is offensive to us. I usually manage the second response, but wonder if it's wrong that I should feel obliged to. And then again, what is the appropriate response to a suggestion to which I react with such bone-deep horror?
So. Crazy? Incoherent? Offensive? I leave that to the rest of you.
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no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 03:05 pm (UTC)Sekrit message: Why did I sign up for
no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 03:12 pm (UTC)I'm quite happy to pimp Farscape, Firefly, and Dunnett at people (within limits). But I stop at implying people are missing out because they don't celebrate the same holidays as me.
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Date: 2004-12-09 03:20 pm (UTC)What you outlined above is EXACTLY what these people are saying to you.
Your people are all burning in hell forever and you will burn in hell, too if you don't accept Jesus NOW.
You are nice. They don't want you to burn in hell with your evil ancestors who chose sin rather than God. As good evangelical Christians it is not just a guideline but their solemn duty to save you from hell if they can. They are supposed to hound you until you wear down and convert at swordpoint, or they aren't doing their jobs.
They have no respect for your ancestors or your religion. Your religion became obsolete as soon as Jesus died on the cross and your stint as chosen people was over and now you burn in hellfire with all the pagans, hindus and other infidels. AND only a very few specially chosen Jews specially picked by God ever went to Heaven in the first place, that is reserved for Christians ONLY. (And according to certain groups, only specific types of Christians as well.)
There's an old joke, in fact.
A Lutheran minister dies and goes to the Pearly Gates where he sees St. Peter. St. Peter welcomes him in and shows him around Heaven. Heaven is lovely and filled with puffy clouds and people peacefully hanging out and playing harps and being happy. The people are of all colors, races and creeds and there is no war or hate or fighting of any kind. Eventually they come to a HUGE stone wall and the minister asks, "St. Peter, what's that over there?" St. Peter replies, "Oh, those are the Catholics/Mormons/Southern Baptists/Evangelicals. They think they're the only ones here."
It's like that. You're right to be insulted. They want to "save" you, but to do that they have to negate the value of everything meaningful to you. Because, to them, only Jesus has value. Only their beliefs and culture has "truth" and everything else is the work of Satan.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 03:24 pm (UTC)I understand, on an intellectual level, the driving, sincere need of some Christians to try and spread the good word, but I will never be able to suppress my automatic wince when they do it. Not because I feel any shame in it, but because overselling something (to use advertising terms) won't endear an idea to anyone. It just makes people annoyed.
My father works at a hospital, and he's a sincere and very convincing "That's why I put my faith in the man upstairs," sort of conversationalist, but he also knows when to back away from it if someone isn't interested, and to just be there for them, which I think is the best thing approach to anyone wanting to engage in "missionary work."
And there is no excuse, IMO, for implying that someone's family is missing something because they aren't of a particular religion.
...I think I might be lacking some coherence, but I basically wanted to say that I agree with you. Yup.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 04:19 pm (UTC)Someone (possibly, in fact,
To be fair, I think the implication about one's family isn't uppermost in peoples' mind when they proselytize--it's just the implication I see.
not me.
Date: 2004-12-09 04:37 pm (UTC)It's a good guideline, and I could stand to follow more often.
- hg
Re: not me.
Date: 2004-12-09 05:11 pm (UTC)Yeap.
Date: 2004-12-09 05:19 pm (UTC)He's my patron saint (both my confirmation name and the patron of animal care-takers.)
(The saints thing is the number one reason all the evangelicals are basically talking to a deaf wall with me - I *like* that part of Catholicism, even when much of the rest is making me insane.)
- hg
Re: Yeap.
Date: 2004-12-09 10:17 pm (UTC)Oh.
Date: 2004-12-09 03:47 pm (UTC)Yes, I can see where that is implied, and I don't think you're too off-base to see that in the "you should really try this religion, yours really isn't all that good" conversations.
I would like to think that a lot of the sting of "you have to come through Jesus to be saved" can be eased away by the Catholic teaching "God determines who he saves, and we can not say who he selects". But even for me, when I was coming back to the Church, that was a bump in the road. Because there is so much insistence that "all other ways are wrong".
And you don't have to tell me from "insult me all you want, but start in on my family and I'll fucking kill you."
*rubs at face* Can I come at this another way? Some members of my family are racist assholes. They act in a hateful manner to black people, to Asians, to "Mexicans." Others are just mildly biased. Either way, they're not...right-thinking liberals.
But I've seen what these people will do for strangers in need - even for members of which ever race they most despise - and I've seen what they will do for family. I've seen that they're up front with their biases and that they are elsewise honest, law-abiding, decent good people. They pay taxes - and don't cheat - they volunteer as firefighters, they volunteer for the military. And you don't get to tell me they aren't good Americans.
You don't get to tell me you aren't glad to have them on our side. 'Cause I'll put your ass *down*, you spit on them like that.
But it really would better - for them and for the people around us - if they didn't hold those beliefs. And they aren't going to change their minds (I can tell you this for sure) just by being told they're wrong. I don't think they're going to change their minds without *some* suggestion that it might be best if they looked at things another way.
So. I can guaran-damn-tee you that not a single Southern evangelical Christian of my acquaintance has thought of it the way you've expressed it to me. And I think that you having said that is going to change how I say things to people.
Thank you for sharing this.
- hossgal
Re: Oh.
Date: 2004-12-09 04:33 pm (UTC)But it really would better - for them and for the people around us - if they didn't hold those beliefs. And they aren't going to change their minds (I can tell you this for sure) just by being told they're wrong. I don't think they're going to change their minds without *some* suggestion that it might be best if they looked at things another way.
And I think it's often the case that this kind of suggestion comes more easily from within the family, rather than from an outsider. I mean, I can "suggest" till I'm blue in the face, but if I don't do it in a respectful way, I'm going to get my hat handed to me, and rightly so.
I can guaran-damn-tee you that not a single Southern evangelical Christian of my acquaintance has thought of it the way you've expressed it to me. And I think that you having said that is going to change how I say things to people.
Well, then my work here is done ;-> But seriously, that's the best thing you could have said. And feel free to trot this point of view out, if ever you need it. The post is unlocked for a reason.
Re: Oh.
Date: 2004-12-10 10:58 am (UTC)"God determines who he saves, and we can not say who he selects".
The Tribe has something like that too: "The righteous of all nations have a share in the world to come." It's amazing that despite all these messages of unity and non-judgement, people still divide and judge and hate based on something as unproveable as God's will.
I wish -- I wish I wish I wish -- that proselytizing done in the spirit of generosity and joy could represent the actions of folks who hold those beliefs, because I tell you, it would be a beautiful world if that was the case. A whole lot of people do that, my in-laws for example. They are Christian, by both name and religion, and they demonstrate the kind of warm, loving, well-meaning message you wrote about. They don't preach or condescend, but I know my mother in law would weep with joy if I were to find Christ with her.
What worries me is that this simple statement of belief is so open to warpage; to the next stage, which is condescension (you poor thing, you're not going to be saved), through superiority (you idiot, don't you know you're going to burn?), all the way through to hositility and violence (my annual Eastertime school ground beatings, accompanied by shouts of "CHRIST KILLER!" leap invariably to mind).
When a foundation of a faith states, however poetically, "this is the only right way; all else are damned," bad things will eventually come of it. It's human nature, I guess.
I like what Douglas Adams had to say:
no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 03:56 pm (UTC)He feels offended because he has chosen to reject their religions (yes, they aren't even the same sect of Christianity, yet they agree that he's going to hell). It's not like he hasn't done his time in bible study or hasn't thought deeply about it. He's offended that they treat him as if he's somehow ignorant when he knows the bible as well as they do even if he chooses not to attend church.
I get offended because I'm struck by the fact that they don't know me at all. They don't know that I'm not a good Catholic girl, all that they know is that I have not expressed an interest in their religion and based on that they think I "need" to accept Jesus as my savior. The arrogance is remarkable, and when you combine that with his mother's initial efforts to read religion into my life ("You're father is a carpenter, just like Jesus!" and "It must be great to have a birthday so close to our lord's" spring to mind), it's hard not to take offense.
For me, it has little to do with what I believe per se. It's more that I find it appalling and, like you, insulting that someone people who are not like them are bad people--because that's what his parents mean when they say that they're troubled that we haven't accepted Jesus as our savior. I agree, it's hard not to see that as an insult to one's family.
And actually, as an aside--I used to babysit for this uber-Christian family whose 6, 8, and 11 yr-old kids would tell the neighbor kids that they were going hell because they didn't go to their church. Seriously, they'd make these other little kids start sobbing. Wonder where they got that attitude from. *g*
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Date: 2004-12-09 05:15 pm (UTC)Is it wrong to find that vaguely funny? Especially the thing about your birthday--does that make you more special?
I think it must be that much more difficult to deal with this kind of thing within the family, to people that you're basically stuck with no matter how much they insult you.
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Date: 2004-12-09 04:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 04:16 pm (UTC)I can't imagine a universe run by a God that has set up a rule system designed to EXCLUDE the majority of humans from his Grace and damn them to Hell. Just for jollies because there's never a reason given for the setup. I am particularly fond of all the literature on how everyone who never hears of Jesus because they live in a culture that never got to hear of him (see Aztecs, Minoans, Chinese, etc.) are all burning in hell because God didn't feel like giving them the option of salvation. That's one heck of an evil, petty, human God, right there. That sounds like a universe run by a paranoid human being, not an all-knowing, all-seeing superbeing.
But any group that says, "all those people who are kind and decent and wonderful to others are going to burn in hell for eternity because they didn't follow rule X, subsection Y of our code," and then insults them and behaves hatefully to them I think is the first to get a rude awakening on Judgement Day or whatever is next.
At least I hope so, in my petty human soul. They at least should get told they were wrong.
I also think that the majority of people who think this way make certain to insulate themselves from knowledge of other religions and cultures and people who follow them. It's much easier to be prejudiced against someone you don't know personally.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 05:22 pm (UTC)And it's funny, because a lot of the people I've been in the world with, so to speak, do come from some of the big organized religions that require, if they were to practice strictly, that they think of me as lost, inferior, etc. either because I wasn't born into X religion or because I've rejected the one I was born into.
That's never bothered me. If any of my friends/classmates/coworkers/in-laws actually have thought that (or, more likely, felt it, because those kinds of knee-jerk reactions do come with the tradition in a lot of cases), they keep it private, or it's just not relevant, or they get over it.
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Date: 2004-12-10 07:30 am (UTC)Their religion "requires" prejudice, but they don't practice their religion strictly enough to fly in the face of the reality of the people they know. Or at least not enough to insult them.
I was still talking about the folks who feel they must evangelize at every opportunity. THOSE folks often don't socialize with people outside their group. They might work with you, but they don't become close friends with you, because it breaks their reality where you're evil and damned. And many groups DEMAND this of their converts, to shield them from challenge to their beliefs.
I had a pal convert to Mormonism when I was in Jr. High. She was taken out of public school and totally isolated from EVERYONE but Mormons for 4 years, so they could be sure she wouldn't backslide. She did anyway, because she STILL couldn't get around the fact that all her old friends were going to hell thing. But they certainly TRIED to fully indoctrinate her into their isolationist viewpoint.
NOTE: This might not be true of Mormons everywhere with converts, these are just the ones I've come into contact with.
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Date: 2004-12-10 08:49 am (UTC)Yes, and I found out from other commentary elsewhere that I'm actually harming the people around me, as well as myself, with my unbelief, which excuses the rudeness of telling me I'm gonna burn. And which makes the proselytizer extra brave, I guess, because I'm contagious or something.
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Date: 2004-12-10 12:39 pm (UTC)If you're not WITH them, you're not only AGAINST them, but an active tool of Satan.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 08:19 pm (UTC)Which reminds me of something that happened years ago to a friend of mine. This was before the Web (so it was practically the Stone Age); she had found a local discussion board for a bunch of Aryan Nation types out in the midwest, and started a one-to-one email conversation with one of their members. Now, my friend was Jewish and told this woman up front that she was Jewish, yet they had a very civil conversation that lasted several months. This didn't stop the woman from expressing the sure and absolute knowledge that Jews were part of a vast international conspiracy, but at the same time she knew that my friend was a nice person who had nothing to do with it.
I saw some of these emails and they were absolutely surreal. Somehow, this woman could hate the group with a passion, and yet totally disassociate somebody who was an admitted member of that group.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 05:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 04:17 pm (UTC)I've actually told some particularly determined ones that if such is the case then I'm actually looking forward to going to hell to be with such people as Ghandi, Buddha, Martin Luther King Jr, the millions killed in the Shoah, the poor heathen babies who died without being baptized etc, etc. It usually totally freaks them out and they avoid me for fear that my true one-way-ticket-to-hell may somehow encompass them.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 05:20 pm (UTC)Ha! It's like that medieval poem, about how it's better to go to hell because that's where all the interesting people end up (at least, the brave men and the beautiful women. Really. I'm not hallucinating this. I think it's a Provencal troubador piece, but I don't really remember.)
no subject
Date: 2004-12-10 02:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 04:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 05:04 pm (UTC)Oh, exACTly. And I freely admit that this crap offends me because of its very hubris, arrogance, and total lack of respect for everyone in the universe who does not believe just. like. them.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 05:21 pm (UTC)And I think I am more offended on my own account, and not just my family's, than you are.
I think the only thing that has offended me worse than Christian proselytism to the living is the posthumous "baptism" for members of other faiths performed by some Mormon sects. And it shouldn't strike me as worse, because I don't believe in point of fact that anything you can do can hurt the dead, or that if souls and Heaven exist, this ceremony can change either of them -- but it makes me see red. They have no right to do that at all. It's obscene.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 07:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-10 03:00 am (UTC)Words cannot express how strongly I agree. People's hearts may be in the right places, but that doesn't stop it being an absolutely disgusting and offensive practice. I'll take eternal damnation, thanks.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-10 08:04 am (UTC)I make an effort not to be offended. I do get very offended by the Lubavitcher people and Chabad types--you know, the people who start with "Why don't you come light Shabbos candles" and end up wanting you to pop out fourteen orthodox sprogs and spend the whole day boiling your silverware. What gives them the right to decide I'm not a good enough Jew?
As for the Mormons--I agree with the basic horror, there. Oddly, I think that being open to the possibility of an afterlife makes it a bit easier to bear--I can always imagine, for example, my great-aunts Rosalind and Esther wandering around heaven bopping persistent Mormons over the head with their handbags. Like Little Rabbit Fru-Fru, but without the intervention of the Good Fairy.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 09:06 pm (UTC)Growing up, my parents half-heartedly took us to an Episcopalian (or Episcopicalalian, as you would say) church in an attempt to keep religion in our lives, but I have to admit that most of what I took away from that experience was the pettiness and small-mindedness of the congregation (Cliques, elitism, abhorrence of the homeless, sex scandals - the works). I never felt any spiritual connection to the Church or the service, and I took on my role as an Altar Boy as if it were a dramatic assignment, rather than a religious one.
At the same time, I was fortunate enough to grow up amongst a group of people with very diverse religious backgrounds (yourself included, of course), who were all perfectly nice and more 'good' than the Church folk seemed to be.
So I decided a long time ago that I couldn't belong to a church that felt that their adherents were the only ones that would be allowed into the afterlife. How is that fair? Just because some of my friends were born into Jewish or Catholic or Buddhist or Atheist families (and let's face it, the vast majority of us don't find our religion - we're born into it), that means that they're going to Hell? And if there religions are saying the same thing, what if they're right and we're wrong? It's like some kind of existential lotto or something. And when the last number is drawn from the great ping pong ball spinning machine in the sky, those with losing tickets are damned to an eternity of fiery torture? No way. I just can't buy into it.
Well, I've kind of drifted from the original topic, but there you have it. Come to think of it, I've never actually voiced this philosophy of mine before. Thanks for the opportunity.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 09:53 pm (UTC)and I took on my role as an Altar Boy as if it were a dramatic assignment, rather than a religious one
...so exactly my approach as well. With extra drama for being a girl. Thank you for the chuckle; I haven't thought of that in years.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-09 11:34 pm (UTC)But yeah, I was doing a lot of theatre at the time, so it just made sense to me. I used to stare at the cross during downtimes as if overcome by some sort of spiritual rapture that I of course wasn't feeling at all.
Glad I could make you chuckle.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-10 12:01 am (UTC)When I listen to someone who has a very strong faith, who fascinates me with the way he/she talks about religion in a not-in-my-face way, THAT's when I start listening.
I must say, and I'm sorry if this is generalising, or oversimplifying, that I was utterly shocked when I visited the States in 2000 and so many people were, to my liberal German traditional Lutheran mind, completely too open about their religion.
See, our family doesn't do prayers before dinner. Many people may consider this wrong, but my grandfather was a pastor, and he never did it, so why should we? You should have seen the looks I got when I didn't join my hosts.
Many of the people I met were scaring me with the way they went about their religion.
To me, religion is something private. Yes, I am Christian, but is there any need to shout that from the mountaintop? Many Christians may see this as a sin, or that I'm ashamed of my beliefs. I'm not. But I continue to think that if people want to know about religion, that THIS is the moment when I should start talking about it. Or when the situation is right.
And if someone's not sharing my religious beliefs, then there's no point in my trying to convert him/her. It's a) not going to work, if their own belief is strong and b) it's appallingly rude. However, if they show interest, then I can give examples of how faith is helping me in my life, and how it changes the way I see things. But out and about telling that person he/she will go to hell because he doesn't share my beliefs?
We're not Knight templars, damn it. And even those were a dark chapter of Christianity, and I don't even want to think about how many people were killed in the name of religion but, ultimately, only out of greed.
So, what this comes back to? I'm very glad I live in a country as liberal as mine is. I know, when you see Lutheran, you probably get a twitching muscle in your jaw. But believe me that the Lutheran church in Germany and the one in the States is different as day and night. We're quiet. Not in a way that we don't do anything, but that we go about religion in a "don't do upon others what you don't want done upon yourself".
Sorry again for generalising, but a lot of the American Christians, as much as I marvel the depth of their faith, scare me. Literally scare me. How can you take the bible literally. If you do, then us women couldn't possibly do anything when we have our period. And after birth, we should be separated from everyone else for how many, 30 days?
What angers me about Christian fanatics, too, is that they take passages from the Old Testament and use it whenever they suit them, and yet they manage to condemn Jews. What the fuck? Same book in most passages, people, don't you think? (Feel free to correct me here)
Not being Jewish myself, the idea behind that card you received yesterday irked me irrationally. It's disrespectful. It's rude. It's just something you DON'T DO.
And insulting your family? I'm sorry, but this is where any kind of fun always stops. Insult the family, face a roundhouse kick in your face with words.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-11 07:41 pm (UTC)Second, I believe that spiritual progress is only made on your own; that is, your listening/prayers/action are what bring you to a genuinely fuller understanding of the spiritual, not just signing your name to a set of tenets you haven't proved for yourself. I've put a lot of thought into some of this stuff, so it definitely comes across as offensive if someone's message is that, essentially, their way is right so therefore I'm wrong. How do they know the depth and scope of my efforts in regard to spirituality? What right do they have to judge?
This is one of the things that puzzles me the most: that Jesus was very clear in his instruction not to judge others, and yet the fundamentalists seem to thrive on judging... especially, as some have pointed out, when others land below them on their perceived scale of good and evil. Reminds me of that terrible, terrible bumper sticker that says, 'Christians aren't perfect, just saved.' Can you say 'nanny, nanny, nanny'?
I guess what jars me is the discrepancy between form and substance. Anyone--in any faith tradition--can talk salvation. But those who have glimpsed something of the divine radiate that inspiration. You can see something exceptional in them... and they tend to be too busy living their faith to spend time talking about it, or warning you about eternal damnation. They're too busy living their truth right here, right now.
no subject
Date: 2004-12-12 12:46 pm (UTC)Thank you for your reply. Honestly and deeply: Thank you.
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Date: 2004-12-10 01:43 am (UTC)What particularly provokes me about Christian proselytizing is that the Christian faith does really NOT have a shining track record when it comes to its treatment of people of other religions (or non-religious people or perceived heretics of any kind). This is true not least vis-a-vis Jews. It seems obscene to me that a Christian would feel it in order to invite you to join a faith whose church has been a central force, either actively or by non-intervention, in the prosecution of Jews for their faith and culture over a couple of millennia. One should think that knowledge would put a bit of shame in their hearts.
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Date: 2004-12-10 03:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-10 03:08 am (UTC)convertforce me from Catholicism over to real Christianity, in a real church that was built twenty minutes ago. </petty snark> Anyway, you're not crazy or incoherent or offensive, you're as intelligent and logical and sensible as ever. *nods*no subject
Date: 2004-12-10 03:49 am (UTC)Not crazy, incoherent, or offensive. (Of course, I'm in total agreement with you, so I could be a bit biased. *g*)
I'm... agnostic, I guess, bordering on atheist. I went to a Baptist school for four years, which led to all kinds of fun. (Not to mention the absolute horror at the fact that my attitude towards the afterlife was to shrug and say 'I'll find out when I die' -- the idea of not knowing for certain what was going to happen was just unthinkable, to these people.)
I think one of the moments when the differences between us really struck home was when a bunch of them dragged me along to see Heaven's Gates, Hell's Flames (no doubt in an attempt to make me see the error of my ways, as they rarely asked me to go out socialising). I remember there being a scene where this woman and her daughter both die. The mother is a good woman -- does good deeds, works with the disabled, and so on. The daughter... is an absolute cow. But, the daughter's a Christian, so she goes to Heaven, while the mother gets consigned to an eternity of hellfire.
And the people in the audience were nodding and cheering, and it was just like... how can I ever find common ground with these people? There was just such a complete fundamental difference in the way we saw the world. If there is some sort of afterlife/reincarnation/et cetera, I'm a firm believer in the 'many paths' view. To me, doing as much good as you can do is the best way to achieve happiness in the afterlife (or whatever); your religion shouldn't make a difference. It's what you do with your life. And, as I said to eli the other day -- if there is a God, and he's petty enough to judge people on whether or not they believe in him... well, quite frankly, fuck him. I don't want anything to do with a supreme being who's so frigging insecure and self-centred.
But, back to proselytising... yeah, it can get pretty offensive. I'm only willing to discuss religion with people who are willing to actually, y'know, discuss things with me, rather than just talk at me. They have to have an open mind.
And honestly, how can people think that they know everything about how the universe works, and what God wants? That's one of the big problems I have with overzealous religion. I can understand using religion as a guideline on how to live your life, and I can understand having faith (to a certain extent), but to think that you know everything and have all the answers, and that everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong...? Yeah. Right. You know the secrets to the universe. You know what God thinks about me. You know for a fact that I'm going to spend eternity getting my bum poked by little red guys with pitchforks. Uh-huh.
And honestly, I think that anyone who can be easily converted is, how can I put this politely... highly suggestible? I can't conceive of just changing everything I believe in, just like that. I think faith is the kind of thing that one should gain on one's own, over time. If someone tells you something's true, and you believe it, well... I don't know. It's why I also have trouble with people converting so they can marry someone of a different religion. I mean, I can understand it on a strictly legal basis, but I've known people who've actually changed what they believed. Buh? How can you change what you believe, just so you can marry someone? I don't get it. At all.
Back on topic (again), I think that a lot of people who proselytise would be amazingly offended if people from other faiths said the same thing to them. There was a show down here this year called John Safran versus God, in which John (a lapsed Jew) went around the world, trying out a bunch of different religions (even participating in animal sacrifice and the like... he got an exorcism in the last episode, heh). He spent quite a while in Salt Lake City; at one point, he made/collected a bunch of pamphlets about atheism and went door-knocking. And man, did he ever get some nasty responses. Given the location, one would guess that a fair few people he talked to were Mormons (or at least Christians of some kind), and... let's just say that they were not pleased..)
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Date: 2004-12-14 06:37 am (UTC)And, as I said to eli the other day -- if there is a God, and he's petty enough to judge people on whether or not they believe in him... well, quite frankly, fuck him. I don't want anything to do with a supreme being who's so frigging insecure and self-centred.
I agree. I mean, I do believe in God (morethan half the time, anyway), and I don't believe that God is evil. So it seems pretty unlikely, to me, that God would act like that. (Although of course if one reads Judges and Kings, one can get a rather different picture of God...)
I do know people who've converted to marry, and have in doing so changed their beliefs--but it's genrally a long project. They don't just wake up one morning and change their minds--they think about conversion over a number of years. (On the other hand, my husband, who isn't at all religious, doesn't want to convert because he feels it would be dishonest--he'd be claiming to believe something he doesn't. That makes sense to me.)
I don't understand the people who claim to know what God wants, either. It seems rather over-ambitious.
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Date: 2004-12-15 08:23 am (UTC)No problem. ;)
(Although of course if one reads Judges and Kings, one can get a rather different picture of God...)
To me, that's the thing (well, one of them) -- if the Bible (or any other religious text) has so many conflicting versions of God, then maybe that should be an indicator that not everything within the book is 100% absolutely guaranteed to be spot-on? It drives me crazy when people say that the Bible is the absolute truth, and, when you point out a spot where it contradicts itself, they either go into some nonsensical attempt to explain it away, or they say 'oh, we don't follow that bit of the Bible'. People picking and choosing bits and pieces in order to fit with their pre-existing beliefs and biases just isn't Christianity, to me -- it's using religion as a justification for what you already think.
I mean, sure, I don't think anyone could be seriously expected to live their life according to every single thing ever said in the Bible, because they'd explode in confusion and contradictions. I think it's better as a general guide, particularly in regards to the Ten Commandments and all that. But there are people who claim that the Bible -- in its entirety -- is truth, and then use it to justify homophobia (or slavery, or whatever), and then ignore you when you try to point out that there are a million times more references to the importance of loving thy neighbour. (And that the Bible also advocates incredibly harsh punishments for things that we wouldn't even consider crimes today.)
It's just... ugh. People who ignore the overarching message of love and respect, and instead choose to follow only the parts of the Bible that prop up their prejudices.... *shakes head*
they think about conversion over a number of years
I can understand that. I don't think it's something *I* could personally set out to do, but I can understand it.
part 2
Date: 2004-12-10 03:49 am (UTC)I really wish that more people could hold the 'many paths' belief. Because everyone should think the same way as I do, damnit! ;) *proselytises*
Like I said, I'm quite happy to discuss religion, as long as the other person is willing to keep an open mind. It's incredibly unfair and selfish to just go 'I'm right, and they're wrong', and you sure as hell won't get into a polite conversation with me if you're going to assume that you're absolutely correct. And you're definitely not going to score points if you bring my family into it. (See, I brought it back on topic!) Of course, most of my family are pretty much atheists or new-agey, which, while looked down upon, don't tend to carry the stigma with extreme Christians as, say, having Jewish relatives would. And I have some ultra-Christian relatives, so they certainly wouldn't get insulted. *sigh*
Which just reminded me of something that happened earlier this year. An aunty of mine (who was very born-again Christian) died, and had a big church funeral. Basically, we were the only non-Christians there, and we got a lot of pushy comments from members of the congregation, a lot of stuff about how wonderful it was to be in here, surrounded by God's love, and all the rest. And then, the people making the speeches? Kept on making really pointed comments (whilst looking straight at us) about how my aunty would've wanted all of her family to join her in Heaven, and how anyone can be saved, and so on, and so forth. My sister and I were... unhappy... about this. It was a fucking funeral, for crying out loud, and I was incredibly offended by the whole thing. I mean, yeah, my aunty would've liked us to convert back when she was alive, but at least she had the respect not to push us (especially those of us who were very much steadfast in our non-religiosity -- she used to make some attempts on my mum, who is a bit more spiritual, and a bit more... I'm not sure 'gullible' is the word I'm looking for, but she tends to believe most things she hears). Using someone's death as a reason to try to convert people is one of the lowest things you can do, in my opinion. Preying on people when they're in mourning is absolutely despicable.
Aaaaaand I've just had an enormous ramble in a stranger's LJ. Sorry. *g* There's been a lot of talk about religion lately, and I think I needed to vent a little. (Or a lot.)
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Date: 2004-12-10 04:24 pm (UTC)Like, dude, find the Hare Krishnas obnoxious? Guess what??
Clearly, self-awareness not a strong point of this personality-type.