(no subject)

[vaznetti]

wisteria_ is collecting everyone's most loathed fanfic words. It's very funny, and you should go take a look.

I was a little surprised to see "partner" and "lover" there, though, because both are words I use in everyday contexts--I grew up with the use of "lover" for homosexual partners ("Your cousin and her lover will be coming for dinner on Tuesday" or "So-and-so's lover just got a job in Texas, so they're moving to Houston." Everyday stuff.) And I know long-term unmarried hetero couples who use "partner." This is a little less common but is usual in introductions: "Have you met So-and-so's partner?"

Is this simply a matter of social context? In places where it's bad and shameful to be gay (or to be an unmarried couple, I guess) I can see why people avoid these words--otherwise, I'm not sure.

Comments

[elynross.livejournal.com]

That may be part of it -- that it sounds somewhat unnatural to some of us. I can't imagine many people using the term "lover" casually around here. *g*

In part, though, I know it bothers people when a pair has just had sex for the first time, and suddenly it's all "the lover." Beyond that, I think it's similar to the objection to overusing descriptive epithets -- it seems unnecessary, and more natural to just use the person's name. The cases you describe, it sounds like the person in question isn't a personal friend, or very well known, so saying "it's so-and-so's lover" is more informative than "Cousin Sally is bringing Renee." Otherwise, they'd just say Sally is bringing Renee probably, right?

So again, I'd say it's contextual, and whether it seems necessary or affected in that context.

[vaznetti]

The cases you describe, it sounds like the person in question isn't a personal friend, or very well known, so saying "it's so-and-so's lover" is more informative than "Cousin Sally is bringing Renee." Otherwise, they'd just say Sally is bringing Renee probably, right?

This is a good point--it does seem odd to me when someone in a fic sees "his/her lover" unless it's contextualized as some kind of "we belong to each other!" or "this person is mine!" moment. It's most commonly used where you know one half of the couple but not the other. I'd say "Fred's lover" or "Fred's partner" as easily as "Fred's wife" and more easily than "Fred's husband" or "Fred's girlfriend/boyfriend" (especially if Fred isn't so young and is in a long-established relationship).

[elynross.livejournal.com]

Right! Exactly. And in all honesty, this isn't one of my personal peeves -- although it's kind of a borrowed peeve. *g* You know, the kind that never bothered you until you knew it bothered someone else you know. And then you start noticing it, and IT'S EVERYWHERE AND YOU CAN'T MAKE IT STOP.

That kind of thing.

[vaznetti]

Oh yes, I know those borrowed peeves. I know them well.

I think the other reason they seemed like odd words to object to is that I'm working on a paper on Roman adultery legislation, so "lover" is just a technical term for me at the moment.

[jcalanthe]

Interesting that you associate lover/gay and partner/straight - I think of partner as long-term/committed relationship, regardless of who's in it (and know married folks who still call each other partner). Although this is apparently a regional thing - back in VA at a wedding, I introduced B as my partner, and people did not understand what it meant (not that they asked or anything - why get clarification when a blank look and ignoring will suffice?).

But thinking about it, most fanfic isn't about long-term established relationships, and lover/partner doesn't get used in the contexts we're talking about.

[vaznetti]

Interesting that you associate lover/gay and partner/straight

This isn't an absolute distinction. I think that it's simply that when I was growing up (San Francisco, in the 70s and 80s) "lover" was the term used by gay men instead of "boyfriend." At least, the gay men I knew, most of whom were friends of my parents. Things may be different now.

[pauraque]

I find "lover" kind of an unpleasant word in most contexts, because it seems unnecessarily specific. It's like you're saying "the person I have sex with" every time you refer to them -- TMI. It also implies a non-committed relationship to me.

But I like "partner" a lot. It's a nice word, implying commitment, fairly neutral between gay and straight, not overtly sexual.

The trouble in fic is usually not the choice of words, but the excessive use of the same epithets over and over in place of a character's name. Unless you're writing about Voldemort (or unless your name is Homer), that's not good style.

[vaznetti]

I think that the only problem with "partner" is that it sounds like you're in business together. But I agree that the problem isn't the words but their overuse--or use in weird contexts.

[pauraque]

I think that the only problem with "partner" is that it sounds like you're in business together.

True, though almost none of the people I interact with are in a position to have a business partner, so it wouldn't normally occur to me. Reminds me of that scene in American Beauty, though:

- ...and this is my partner David.
- Oh. What business are you in?
- Um...

[spican.livejournal.com]

I have a love-hate reaction to that kind of thread. It is amusing to get one's own pet peeves wittily confirmed by others but the majority of the words are terms that I know I'd find perfectly all right if used with a little skill. And my hackles raise at how this discussion and others like it always veers into absolutist self-righteousness, like thou shalt *never* use a different word than "said" to attribute dialogue, and thou shalt *never* use a different word than "blue" or "red" to denote the colors blue and red, and, and ...

... and oh God what a boring world it would be if writers listened to "never"s. It would be so boring there would be no point in reading anything at all.

I know I have used many of the words listed and probably on occasion used them badly, but I've also used some and still think they were the exactly right words in that context; I think they were so right that I don't give a damn if it made some reader roll their eyes and stop reading. And I'd prefer to make the occasional error in good taste rather than start thinking about all the things people hate to see when I'm writing, but it's very hard not to start making mental notes when you read this kind of list. It's a sort of imagination straightjacket.

So all in all I think I hate it more than I love it and the thread annoys me more than it amuses me. Which is not directed at you, I hope you understand -- you're just the piano player. *g* It just makes me feel extremely contrary when people start wagging their pointer finger and saying "you should not and you should never!" It makes me want to go out and do exactly what I'm advised never and not to do. (So look for smirking, moist cum-fic from me next. ;)

[k2daisy.livejournal.com]

But they're right about "cum". :::shudder:::

Seriously, I understand your reaction. I do think usage (or over-usage) of particular words has to do with context and skill; many of the words declared 'no-no's' in the comments are perfectly acceptable in many stories I've read and enjoyed.

That said, I also appreciate the use of "partner/lover" in certain stories, because the way the epithet is abused in them is a big fat signal that this is one story I will probably want to avoid.

Case in point, here's a typical opening scene:

"Over the din of their yipping dogs, Alex tapped his foot impatiently waiting for his lover to open the front door.

'Fox," he exclaimed when he sighted his hazel-eyed lover, 'where have you been? The dinner party starts in fifteen minutes, and I've been cooking all day! You were supposed to come home early and help!'

Fox ambled over to his pouting partner and kissed him firmly on his quivering plump lips. 'I'm here now,' he replied throatily. 'And we still have time for a quick love-making session before our guests arrive. Get naked, gorgeous.'"

*g*

[spican.livejournal.com]

Bwah-hah! With all the awful wrongness in those paragraphs, the partner/lover element shouldn't be needed as a red light at all. Anyway, it's this usage of the epithet when we all know the character's name that looks silly (and it's probably much more usual in slash where it's a lazy solution to the whole pronoun problem).

And I agree about "cum", of course. I just have problems with the way the baby is always thrown out with the bathwater when right/wrong in fic is discussed. There's so much irrational, subjective and prescriptive about it.

[k2daisy.livejournal.com]

With all the awful wrongness in those paragraphs, the partner/lover element shouldn't be needed as a red light at all.

Heehee, true. But those are the stories where I find partner/lover most grates on my nerves. Because the entire fic is rife with bad writing and cheap shortcuts, and partner/lover as a constant epithet is one of those shortcuts. On the other hand, I have a list of words I just can't stand, but I find I am much more willing to overlook them (and in some cases, not even notice them being used) in well-written stories.

So it really does come down to good writing. But doesn't everything? :)

[vaznetti]

Bwahahahahaha! Didn't I just see that story on a list somewhere?

I think the quivering plump lips there are a particularly good touch. Ew.

[vaznetti]

I see your point here. Personally, I take this kind of list all in good fun--a kind of collective "blowing off steam" moment. Everyone has their little squick points, and there's a limit to how much attention any individual author can and should pay to them. I wouldn't suggest, for example that no one should ever use the term "boy" in a slash fic. But I won't be reading that fic, because it's a weird little thing I find intolerable. It doesn't mean that the person who uses the word is a bad writer, or is doing something wrong.

[spican.livejournal.com]

I know it was in fun, of course. And a lot of it was, indeed, very funny. I suspect that it's the collectiveness of it more than the individual comments that I react against, but I don't exactly take it seriously -- I just can't help being my dour old self. ;)