quick BSG comments

[vaznetti]

I liked the fleshing out of Colonial religion here -- in a way which actually made sense. Of course if you deal in a polytheistic system, all gods are equally real. The existence of the Cylon god doesn't disrupt Colonial religion; if anything, the fact that the Cylons have their own god reinforces the status of the gods of the Colonials.

And I liked the tree and rock, adorned with offerings or something, because religion should be physical.

I read this in someone else's commentary, but it's true -- each time a Cylon dies and is reborn, the unity of the Cylons is strained just a little further. And I wonder if there's a limit to how many times they can undergo the process before they go mad, or before it stops working.

Also on the Cylons: "Our resources are stretched thin as it is." There are fewer of them than anyone realized, and this explains a great deal about the decisions they've made.

Tom Zarek: if Baltar does not remain president, and I have a hard time seeing how he'd be able to do so, since he's widely believed to be a traitor to humanity, will Zarek take the position? He was Baltar's vice-presidential candidate, wasn't he? Because Roslin lost that election fair and square.

I would very much like to see that, although I suspect that legality may be thrown out the window in the aftermath of the exodus.

I actually still think that, given what they knew, the Colonials made a perfectly reasonable choice in deciding to settle on New Caprica, and that in the long run, they needed the time to settle down and have babies. Which seems to be what pretty much everyone did.

Oh, Ellen. I want to know what Saul will do now. Kill her? Maybe so, but he'd never be able to live with himself afterward. If Saul does kill her, he'll die too.


Can't wait for the next part!

Comments

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Oh, good point about Zarek being elected VP which once Baltar is disqualified makes him legal President.

I do think that he and Roslin will form a transition government, with new elections later once things have settled down a bit, though given that Roslin served out the rest of Adar's term, Zarek is qualified to serve out the rest of Baltar's...

Ellen/Saul OTP!

[vaznetti]

Ellen/Saul OTP indeed. In a hurtful kind of way. But god, do they love each other.

I suspect that you're right about the transitional government, although considering that New Caprica was something of a cock-up, presumably Roslin will be feeling rathr confident about her election prospects. But I would really love to see Roslin and Adama dealing with Zarek as president.

(nice icon, by the way -- I may need to find a few more BSG icons myself.)

Icons

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Check out nyuszi, she made some fantastic ones recently.

Re: Icons

[vaznetti]

Thanks -- I did!

[fourteenlines.livejournal.com]

I wonder how many of the Cylon models were lost for good following the destruction of the resurrection ship? Obviously they've called in the reinforcements, because they now have other means of resurrecting themselves.

I find it interesting that Leoben doesn't seem to be much affected by his frequent resurrections. I mean, one is to assume that this Leoben is the one that Kara interrogated, right? And now she's killed him five more times? I also get kind of...irritated by the fact that there only seems to be one Leoben model around, and his sole purpose is to screw with Starbuck's head. But I guess that's probably more of an actor-commitment thing than a plot-related thing? Meh.

[vaznetti]

I think I saw some spec somewhere that Leoben was an early model, and thus there may not be so many of him around? In any case, the key to cylon numbers isn't bodies but -- for lack of a better word -- souls. Maybe Leoben's visionary status makes his soul more fragile? Because I think all these deaths and resurrctions have driven him around the bend, just a little. Maybe. I mean, Leoben has a logic of his own, but he doesn't quite seem to live in the world.

[rez-lo.livejournal.com]

Did you catch what the unbeliever cylon said about how it hurt more every time he downloaded? I thought that was really interesting both spiritually and technologically, at least potentially. Diana has an interesting theory that the download is itself a spiritual event and that the cylons created the process as such because they hadn't yet figured out how to obey God's command to reproduce. I think that's very persuasive.

I can't even bear to watch Ellen Tigh--I've had that reaction to her from her first appearance. The self-degradation is just very hard to take.

Great episode.

[vaznetti]

Yes -- that line about how it hurt more each time was what got me thinking in the first place. I wonder if that pain is specific to that particular model, or if they all suffer it?

Ellen has grown on me over time; at first I found her hard to watch, but now I think she's a tragic figure, if in an unusual way. And I love how, over and over in this show, love isn't what saves you or redeems you. Love is what digs your grave.

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

Of course if you deal in a polytheistic system, all gods are equally real.

This the thing that made some people cranky with earlier mentions of colonial religion - that there should have been people who had pledged themselves to Zeus and others to Athena and others to Hera and so on - that even though all Gods are real, each person would have a separate relationship with each one. Or something like that.

(And dude, I am still pissed about Roslin name checking Mars and not Ares. Not the same thing, dammit.)

And I liked the tree and rock, adorned with offerings or something, because religion should be physical.

Yes - or, it should be physical for at least some people. I don't buy that everyone goes for the cerebral airy sort of faith.

each time a Cylon dies and is reborn, the unity of the Cylons is strained just a little further.

I'm gonna say what I said when "airquotes" Cylon was bitching about his headache - "Dude. Enough with the first-world problems."

(I do think it's an interesting point, that they can't recyle indefinately without degredation (and Scar! I miss the goat!) but I'm very much failing to get worked up over the Cyclon's regeneration problems.)

It's a sign of how much they've been able to do with the characters that I both totally believe that Baltar and Ellen are going up in front of a firing squad before the season is over, and that I don't want them to. Because I can see why they think they're right, and why they chose what they did.

- hg

[vaznetti]

This the thing that made some people cranky with earlier mentions of colonial religion - that there should have been people who had pledged themselves to Zeus and others to Athena and others to Hera and so on - that even though all Gods are real, each person would have a separate relationship with each one.

Well, maybe. But not necessarily. The problem as I see it is that we've mostly seen public religion -- as opposed to private or initiation-cult -- and that the writers have a minimal understanding of how ancient religion works. Which is OK. I can handwave.

I do think it's an interesting point, that they can't recyle indefinately without degredation (and Scar! I miss the goat!) but I'm very much failing to get worked up over the Cyclon's regeneration problems.

I myself am still mostly in the "hey, that's a weakness; I wonder if it can be exploited?" stage with regard to the Cylons and their problems. But I really like the idea of eventual degradation, as the copies are downloaded, one body to the next. And that perhaps there's only a limited amount of Cylon consciousness, and once it's gone it's really gone. I would like that.

It's a sign of how much they've been able to do with the characters that I both totally believe that Baltar and Ellen are going up in front of a firing squad before the season is over, and that I don't want them to.

Yes. Although I suspect that the person most likely to die in front of a firing squad is Gaeta, because the writers are mean like that. (I do think that at least Gaeta's behavior during the occupation clears away the possibility that he's a Cylon model.) But someone innocent will have to die, I think.

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

The problem as I see it is that we've mostly seen public religion -- as opposed to private or initiation-cult -- and that the writers have a minimal understanding of how ancient religion works.

Is there a down and dirty version of 'how ancient religion works'? *is poking at BSG WIPS again*

But someone innocent will have to die, I think.

Hmmm. I'm thinking of Roslin's highly indigant "you're imprisioning people! torturing innocent people!" and then pulls out Tigh as her 'innocent' person. Which made me laugh at Roslin's self delusion/ballsy attitude. (ballsy - is a word, yes?)

I'm thinking, yeah, you're probably right. Which would suck, as Gaeta is starting to grow on me.

(Oh! one last WTF? - a dog? Who got a name last ep, but I can't remember what it is.)

- hg

[vaznetti]

Is there a down and dirty version of 'how ancient religion works'? *is poking at BSG WIPS again*

Not as such -- because anceint Greek religion works differently from ancient Roman religion, which works differently from ancient Egyptian religion etc. etc. Any one of the following may be useful, though:

S. R. F. Price, _Religions of the Ancient Greeks_ (Cambridge, 1999)
Louise Bruit Zaidman and Pauline Schmidt Pantel, _Religion in the Ancient Greek City_ (Cambridge 1992)
Jon D. Mikalson _Ancient Greek Religion_ (Blackwell, 2005)

And of course I might be trying to shoe-horn Colonial religion into my idea of what Colonial Religion ought to look like, too.

Hmmm. I'm thinking of Roslin's highly indigant "you're imprisioning people! torturing innocent people!" and then pulls out Tigh as her 'innocent' person. Which made me laugh at Roslin's self delusion/ballsy attitude. (ballsy - is a word, yes?)

I'm quite sure ballsy is a word. And yes, that was a great scene, because Tigh is a lot of things, but he's not innocent; none of them are, I guess, not really. But people will be killed for things other than what they did, I think. Tyrol's comment about Gaeta was more than a little chilling, in that regard.

I hadn't even thought about the dog. Now I'm all -- a dog?

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

I'm watching that scene with the Cylons now. What I wonder is, and I don't think it's ever been explained, is what happens when one Cylon dies and is downloaded? Is the download just to one of the same model, or do all of the model group get the information? Is it a transference of consciousness and "soul" to a previously unconscious model?
each time a Cylon dies and is reborn, the unity of the Cylons is strained just a little further. And I wonder if there's a limit to how many times they can undergo the process before they go mad, or before it stops working.

It seems to be like cloning, in which each successive clone has more and more deviations from the original, and eventually degrades totally.

[vaznetti]

What I wonder is, and I don't think it's ever been explained, is what happens when one Cylon dies and is downloaded? Is the download just to one of the same model, or do all of the model group get the information? Is it a transference of consciousness and "soul" to a previously unconscious model?

That's my understanding -- that they have more models than they have consciousnesses (is that the right word?). And the consciousness of a dead Cylon is vested in a single model -- that's why "Caprica Six" and Boomer are special, because they've had specific experiences which aren't shated by all the other Cylons. I think. Although the models also seem to share certain predispositions -- they tend to think in the same ways.

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

Although the models also seem to share certain predispositions -- they tend to think in the same ways.
I guess it would be like identical twins, who have the same genetic makeup, who live apart gaining different life perspectives. There is a certain similarity of thought and way of looking at things, but the personalities have been moulded by their different experiences.
Thanks for helping me clarify that in my mind.

[vaznetti]

That's a neat analogy -- that the different Cylon models are like identical twins. So they're becoming less similar as they get older, as well, because they have more and more experiences.

[octavia-b.livejournal.com]

each time a Cylon dies and is reborn, the unity of the Cylons is strained just a little further. And I wonder if there's a limit to how many times they can undergo the process before they go mad, or before it stops working.

I've been wondering this too - whether each successive 'version' is just a little degraded from the previous one. That's why I was intrigued by the headache comment from the priest/athiest cylon (can't remember his name) because it indicates that it's getting harder.

Also on the Cylons: "Our resources are stretched thin as it is." There are fewer of them than anyone realized, and this explains a great deal about the decisions they've made.

Yes, it was an interesting comment because up until now I've assumed their resources were almost infinite. I mean, are there still cylons back on Caprica? Were the other planets all occupied as well?

[vaznetti]

Yes, it was an interesting comment because up until now I've assumed their resources were almost infinite. I mean, are there still cylons back on Caprica? Were the other planets all occupied as well?

I'm starting to think that perhaps they weren't -- and that the Cylon attack was so devastating and horrific because they knew they didn't have the resources for a long war. They had to nuke all the colonies and destroy the fleet before the humans had a chance to regroup.

That said, the canonical evidence isn't altogether clear -- there are many, many of the fighters, for example, because we've seen them swarming out of the base ships. I suspect that the real pressure is in the humanoid models, the ones who are fully self-aware. Making bodies is easier than making sould or minds, perhaps.

Part of me kind of doubts that the producers have sat down to think about this kind of problem, because it seems to me that whether the Cylons have infinite resources or very few resources depends on the needs of the plot. But I might be wrong -- humans are learning more about the Cylons as the show progresses, and so are we.

[octavia-b.livejournal.com]

Part of me kind of doubts that the producers have sat down to think about this kind of problem, because it seems to me that whether the Cylons have infinite resources or very few resources depends on the needs of the plot.

Yes, and it's not like they haven't done this kind of thing before either . . . *cough* Lee'spregnantexgirlfriendwhocameoutofnowhere *cough*.

But I might be wrong -- humans are learning more about the Cylons as the show progresses, and so are we.

And I hope this is where they're going with it. I love this show. Not with an obsessive Supernatural kind of love but a 'this is my serious show' love. So I don't want to see a mid-season, 'where are we going with this show again?' lag like we had last year.

[fatema.livejournal.com]

You know, I wonder if it's just the number five who is having this kind of trouble or if it's overall for the Cylons in their downloading. In the scene it appeared as though the other cylons were sympathetic to the situation. However, I also remember in the last episode Leoben has been downloaded like five times, and he doesn't seem worse for wear, you know? So that makes me question it a bit.

And do you think the Cylons are stretched to their limit because it's only a few of them who decided to follow Caprica Six and Boomer's plan?

Zarek is supposed to be president, but I have a feeling that Roslin will be instead.