Giving Xenophobia a Bad Name...

[vaznetti]

... or, vaznetti breaks that self-imposed rule about talking about politics.

It's ironic to be teaching the Athenian democracy at election time, as the Athenians considered election an undemocratic way of choosing leaders. They preferred that their council be large and chosen by lot; voting was good for making decisions, not for choosing other people to make decisions for you.

The Canadians voted on Monday and got a Conservative minority government; many of my friends and colleagues are a little distressed about this, and I sympathize, since I know what it is to be concerned about the direction your country is going. I do have trouble accepting the most doom-and-gloom predictions since

A. even if Stephen Harper does have a right-wing agenda, he doesn't have the votes in Parliament to push it through. He has fewer seats than the Liberals did in 2004, and look how well that turned out for them,

B. there's bound to be another election within the next two years, as soon as the Liberals figure that people have forgotten about the whole corruption thing, at which point the Liberals will probably win a majority again, and

C. as a U.S. citizen, I'm pretty sure the Constitution does not permit me to take Canadian politics seriously.

In other news, the Palestinians are voting today, in an election which looks like it boils down to Fatah vs. Hamas. Interesting times, indeed.

Comments

Heh

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

They preferred that their council be large and chosen by lot

...not an expert on Classic history, but I expect that this value - like, perhaps, the Athenian attitudes about women, immigrants, and slaves - would have been modified and "improved" over time, until it came to more or less resemble the modern (USA) process of picking jury pools.

;)

I'm not so sure about B, myself, but I totally agree with C. (And when we are expected to give a fig be involved, an amendment will be passed, specifying which countries.)

(More seriously - getting worked up over another democratic country's elections is like getting worked up over an adult sibling's romances - it carries with it the assumption that the people involved are incapable of looking after their own affairs. However, as an oldest sister, I am well aware of the actual fretting that goes on, no matter what it looks like on the surface.

- hg

Re: Heh

[vaznetti]

...not an expert on Classic history, but I expect that this value - like, perhaps, the Athenian attitudes about women, immigrants, and slaves - would have been modified and "improved" over time, until it came to more or less resemble the modern (USA) process of picking jury pools.

I'm not sure what you mean here -- the Athenians do, at times, become a bit freer with their citizenship, but I doubt that they would ever have considered extending political power to women. But what do you mean about the jury pools?

I sometimes feel like I ought to have more of an opinion, since I live here. But really, not my country.

Re: Heh

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

My point was that the Athenians had a v. cool idea - organized citizen rule (vs the tribal sort of elders group rule) but that the actual practice of it, in this day and age, would have been condemned as oppressive and dictatorial. So, context is very important, and I don't think that how Athenians did stuff was always in the best interest of a free society. (Which you know, and I wasn't trying to pick a fight, just make a joke, which brings me to:

But what do you mean about the jury pools?

I mean we have this concept of the almighty "trial by a jury of your peers" thing as being ever so just and right. Except I've sat in jury selection, and listened to other profesionals bitch about jury duty as "a waste of their time and money" and seen the way lawyers on all sides manipulate jury selection, and so when people say "Oh, we'll just select our leaders by lot, that will make things much better!" I think of juries, and am not enthused.

Which sounds like I'm raining on your parade, and I'm not, I just should have made the amendment joke and left it at that. Sorry.

- hg

Re: Heh

[vaznetti]

My point was that the Athenians had a v. cool idea - organized citizen rule (vs the tribal sort of elders group rule) but that the actual practice of it, in this day and age, would have been condemned as oppressive and dictatorial.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Athenian democracy only works because they exclude women and slaves and foreigners. Sorry about not getting the joke -- a busy morning made me all of a sudden humor-impaired!

(Of course, the Athenians would think our habit of challenging jurors bizarre beyond words -- as far as they were concerned, if your name came up in the lottery, that was that. Fate had spoken, and to hell with any potential conflicts of interest! Although they would also thing that twelve is a ridiculously small number. If you've got 501 jurors, it doesn't matter so much if three of them are the defendent's cousins, or if the defendent ran over one of their dogs, or something like that.)

[forodwaith.livejournal.com]

C obviously not in effect for me, but I do agree with A and B. (Now watch me grind my teeth to stubs if the Tories actually do some of the more bone-headed things that have been brought up, like a free vote on SSM.)

Oddly, the most emotion I felt on Monday night was on the personal level; two people I know were defeated and I was very disappointed for their sakes.

[vaznetti]

It always seems worse when it's someone you know who's defeated in an election, I think.

Now watch me grind my teeth to stubs if the Tories actually do some of the more bone-headed things that have been brought up, like a free vote on SSM.

It just seems so unlikely, to be honest. Because even if the Tories make it a free vote, you just know that the other parties will be rallying their members to make sure to vote "no!" just for the opportunity to make points and represent the Conservatives as crazy right-wing people out of step with Canada. Even if they tried it, it wouldn't pass.

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

I agree, Harper and his band of right wingers might try a free vote, as a way of showing his religious constituency that hey! he tried, but that's the way democracy works.. and then forget about the issue until he gets a majority (heaven forbid).
The Conservatives are outnumbered by the Liberals in the centre, and the NDP and the Bloc on the left. Harper is smart enough to pick his battles, I think.
I must admit to feeling very relieved at the outcome of the election, given that we could have ended up with a Conservative majority.

[vaznetti]

I think it will be interesting to see how Harper tries to get anything done in this parliament. He'll have to be very careful to avoid appearing impotent.

I also suspect that WRT the gay marriage issue, the window of opportunity for repealing it is pretty narrow. Once one has a substantial number of married couples (who will end up being grandfathered in) it won't make sense to reverse the policy.