Outing myself

[vaznetti]

First of all, I need to apologize for the crudeness of the icon. Most of the people reading this will have no idea what this post is about, and that's fine. The rest of you (I'm looking at you, jennyo) will be bored by yet another post on this subject.

There seems to be another round of "fandom_wank persecutes people" going on, and there's been some intemperate language used. The gist of it seems to be that you can't be friends with the people being persecuted and also be a member of (or regular reader of) fandom_wank, and that if you don't boycott fandom_wank you are a very bad person indeed.

People, I left "you can't be friends with her if you're friends with me" behind when I graduated from high school. I'm too old for that crap. But this is my public service announcement. I read fandom_wank over on blurty. I occasionally comment in it. I'm not going to stop doing these things. If this means that any reader feels the need to cut ties with me, now would be a good time to do it.

Thank you. We now return to your scheduled programming.

Comments

[jood.livejournal.com]

Aw man, I wanna get flamed on fandom_wank. [sniff]

[cofax7]

No, Jood, you really don't.

As for the kerfuffle, I thought I didn't care much, until I saw someone in the comments on Te's LJ say, "lie down with dogs, get up with fleas."

Well, that triggered a reaction.

Jood may remember that phrase. It was used about her. And me. And a number of other folks active here on LJ.

I think Fandom_wank fosters bitterness and encourages poor public behavior. But I don't think any one individual (say you, Vanzetti) should be blamed for the behavior of any other individual who also happens to be a member of the same community.

That's bullshit. It was bullshit on atxc in the summer of 2000 and it's bullshit now.

I'll hold people accountable for what THEY do and say. Nobody else.

[jood.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the heads-up.

I went over there and noticed they use the word "kerfLuffle". End of story for me. If they can't get k-e-r-f-u-f-f-l-e right, to heck with 'em. Hee.

That dog/fleas concept isn't unique to flamewars. I think it's symptomatic of an unoriginal mind. Little Leogirl said the same thing to me about the Haven kerfuffle over slash which wasn't about slash. I think there comes a point in an argument when the dim-witted run out of ammo and have to resort to door-slamming and finger-pointing in order to continue participating. And to me, that's when it gets fun. :-)

[vaznetti]

Like I said below, I'm really sorry to have brought up bad memories for you--totally not my intention.

Weirdly, the dogs/fleas part of this argument was brought up by the people who are supposed to be on the "smart people" side (the root of their argument being, I think, that F-W bullies people for being smart, but that might be a misperception).

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I've always thought that at places like that people usually just reveal themselves in what they say and do. I was always astonished at the power some people had over the "crowd" in some of the forums. Because from their actions they were clearly bad people.

Is that what you're saying is going on at fandom wank? The lunatics are running the asylum and then punishing people who don't like to be cruel like they are?

But, all in all, all of fandom and related activities is just a huge opportunity for some people to a) engage seriously in fandom b) share their love of whatever c) share their fic/art/whatever offerings d) be small and petty and gossip and try to hurt others in that way

There's always going to be a significant portion of any non self-selecting group that's going to want to do d. I don't think they can be stopped. They can't stop them at Haven, which has the strictest rules I've ever seen. So any forum is going to attract its share of d.

So we can a) be mighty slapfight warriors or b) ignore and avoid them.

As you know, I waver between the two.

d

[vaznetti]

Goodness! I had no idea I was stirring up bad memories for you and Jood! I really didn't mean to do anything of the sort. It was just a bit of a shock to check some links and suddenly find myself being called some bad names--not personally, but by extension. That made me uncomfortable, and in my new bitchy, non-passive-agressive state I decided to respond.

I think the evil power of fandom_wank sometimes gets exaggerated. People in fandom were perfectly capable of being horrible to each other before it came along, and will no doubt continue to be horrible long after we all get bored and find something else to do. But that's merely my own opinion, and I know that other people don't agree with that.

But again--I'm very sorry to have dredged up unhappy memories for you. Can I possibly making it up by pimping the REALLY wonderful novels of Alan Furst to you? Very atmospheric spy stories set in Europe in the 30s? They're not like Dunnett, but they're as good and as complex.

[cofax7]

Oh! Don't misunderstand me. I'm not upset at you.

I'd read a few of the other LJ posts before I got to yours. It was the conjunction of seeing the fleas/dog comment and then your comment that drove me to respond.

Don't sweat it -- I was trying to use it as a way of pointing out that even people who think they have good intentions can end up doing very much the wrong thing.

People in fandom were perfectly capable of being horrible to each other before it came along, and will no doubt continue to be horrible long after we all get bored and find something else to do

True. I just don't see it worthwhile to put it all in the same place and encourage it, you know? It makes it socially acceptable.

Alan Furst, huh? I'll keep an eye out for them. Right now I'm working my way very slowly through "Moonwise". So very dense and beautiful.

Moonwise

[vaznetti]

I loved Moonwise. I'm not sure that I understand it, but it's one of those books I try to keep with me (although it didn't make it to New York). I love the language of it, and the density of the imagination behind it.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

Goodness! I had no idea I was stirring up bad memories for you and Jood!


Um, as the person who was mostly the one being pilloried publicly... I didn't get too terribly pissed off about what was said about me. Because, I can take it. People can say what they want. They can even lie. I don't give a shit. It doesn't really matter because it's Internet Retards slapfighting and like I really care what those people think?

I DID totally hate the assholes that went after my friends. And I had to keep my normally big mouth shut rather than encourage the complete psychos who were both vilifying me and then trying to run everyone who knew me out of the fandom on a rail.

What really got me about it then, and still gets me to this day, is that the ones who went after me are the same people who always start shit. They are troublemaking, gossiping, bad, bad people from way before I even knew what online fandom was. And nobody cared about that. That really pissed me off. Because I didn't have that kind of a reputation and people who were established troublemakers were the ones accusing me and everyone just believed them without question. I am always disappointed when people don't have any common sense.

And when you start going after someone's friends, that's just so fucking low. I'm sorry, but people like that are just plain worthless.

So there's my bad memories. And it has nothing to do with you or the fandom wankers and it doesn't bother me except that I know some other person like me and all of her friends are probably getting shafted somewhere else. I hate hearing about that. I don't like thinking people are like that, despite the evidence to the contrary.

I just don't get why anyone would bother.

I assume fandom wank is a criticism site. Criticism is just that. And it has a perfect right to exist. People always hate it, but people have opinions and a right to express them. If people don't like the opinions expressed about them, there's nothing they can do about it without sounding like whiny losers. (Unless they're John Dryden, or someone and then they just own the critics by upstaging them.) So they should just take their lumps with everybody else. If they suck, maybe they should get better.

k

[vaznetti]

Um, as the person who was mostly the one being pilloried publicly...

And see, I didn't even know that. It sounds like a really awful situation. I'm sorry.

I assume fandom wank is a criticism site. Criticism is just that. And it has a perfect right to exist.

It was set up as a place to mock flamewars and bizzare egomaniacal fannish behavior. I posted a link to yet another "Cassie Claire is wonderful" "No! She is terrible!" thread (maybe on fictionalley?) there once, for example: not because I had anything to say in that debate but because I'm amazed and amused that people are still talking about it.

As you'd expect the line between pointing and laughing and abuse gets blurred sometimes. And someone acting in a bizzare egomaniacal fashion in one person's eyes might simply be demanding the respect she feels she deserves in her own eyes and the eyes of her friends. And there are clearly some old and well-honed axes in play. It sometimes takes the commentary that usually goes on in IM or offlist emails during retard slapfights and brings it out into a public forum. I personally don't think it's as harmful as some people believe, but it's also the case that a lot of what goes on is over my head.

In this case, a group of prominent fans over in Smallville feel that they're being victimized by f-w and have responded by attacking f-w in turn, and, I think, trying to shame people away from it by claiming that everyone who reads the site is Evil (in the words of one commentator, "shit-flinging liars, bitches and backstabbing cunts," I think, but I don't have the URL--I liked the line so I wrote it down). And I don't really feel like being shamed into submission today.

Re:

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

How tiresome.

Even if they ARE being persecuted. Whining about it just makes them look bad.

[se-parsons.livejournal.com]

I love that icon.

I don't read fandom_wank. Maybe I should. Because I'd like to slapfight with the retards making this statement.l

[vaznetti]

I dunno if it would appeal. Poor kimonthejourney had a terrible experience when she tried to argue rationally with the people on F-W, which is just not what the place is about. But they do point you to places where other people are trying--and usually failing--to argue rationally.

Thanks. I like the icon too. I think I'm going to keep it around.