![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Rome as a "Mediterranean Society"
Spoilers for the final episode of Rome; please do not read this until you've seen the episode, unless you want to be spoiled for things that you would not learn by reading a history book or Suetonius.
I've seen a couple times now the statement that Niobe killed herself to preserve Lucius' honor. I think the situation is a little more complicated than that, but I want to explain the original statement before I go any farther.
Anthropologists have a category they refer to as "Mediterranean societies," because many of the cultures which developed around the Mediterranean, both ancient and modern, have certain shared assumptions about honor, particularly the honor of the household -- roughly speaking, that the honor of the men in the household depends on the sexual chastity of the women of that household. So a woman who is seduced or raped hasn't dishonored herself -- she's dishonored her menfolk (seduction) or been the vessel by which some outside man has dishonored the men of her family (rape). It's a little difficult to tell whether a woman has honor as an individual in this kind of society, or whether she's just the embodiment of the honor of her male relatives, but it's mostly the latter. Anyway, the key point is that the sexual behavior of a woman can increase of decrease the honor of her male relatives, including her husband, and (at least in some of these societies) a man who's wife or daughter or sister has been touched by any kind of sexual impropriety can restore his own honor by killing the woman in question.
Classical Greece, or rather, Classical Athens, is a particularly good example of this kind of society. Rome is a little more complicated, especially in the later Republic, because of the way Roman families and Roman marriages are made. On the one hand, it's clear that the typical Mediterranean model was perfectly intelligible to Romans -- there's a famous story about a father who kills his own daughter to prevent her from being enslaved and raped and thus to preserve the honor of his household. At the same time, some women at least seem to have their own honor: in Livy's version of Lucretia's death, she kills herself to preserve her own honor, not that of her father or husband (and Tarquin succeeds in raping her not because he threatens to kill her, but because he threatens to arrange her body after death in such a way that it will seem that she was caught in adultery with a slave). Lucretia kills herself despite the protests of her male relatives because she feels that her honor has been diminished. Then, to avenge her, her relatives drive out the last king of Rome and establish the Republic: make of that what you will.
Where Roman women embody the honor of their families, the honor is that of their birth-family rather than their husbands -- Cicero, to slander Clodia, reminds her of her ancestors and all the other patrician Claudii and attacks her for not living up to the model they set. In Augustus' adultery legislation, a husband has no right to kill a wife discovered in adultery, but a father does (under certain limiting circumstances -- that the adultery happens in his house or the husband's house, that he find the couple in flagrante and that he kill the lover as well). This legislation is almost certainly the first time that adultery is made a criminal offense in Roman law (rapists could be charged with violence or sexual misconduct).
It's also worth noting that a Roman birth-family is just as likely to be dishonored by the actions of its male members; the major difference between male honor and female honor is that female honor is pretty much limited to the sexual sphere, whereas men can have honor in many different ways (e.g. politics and military service). Some Roman women do also kill themselves for political reasons (think of Porcia, Cato's daughter and Brutus' wife), though, so even that isn't a hard-and-fast rule.
OK, to bring this back to Niobe, there's the additional complication that her background isn't all that clear -- she does have a Greek name, although her family are apparently from Italy and almost certainly Roman citizens (they have to be, for the marriage to be valid). So they might be Greeks long-settled in Southern Italy -- and I'm not sure what cultural practices in Magna Graecia are common in the first century BCE, although Naples for instance was a Greek town. So Niobe might believe that she could restore Lucius' honor by killing herself, but Lucius would see her death as a way of asserting her own honor (since if he'd felt dishonored he could have divorced her with no difficulty). One cannot, however, make the statement, "Niobe killed herself to restore Vorenus' honor," at least not without quite a few caveats about what she might have thought she was doing as opposed to what he or any other Roman would have thought.
There are further complicating factors to do with the political and ethical stance Vorenus appears to have taken, but I think I've gone on long enough.
I've seen a couple times now the statement that Niobe killed herself to preserve Lucius' honor. I think the situation is a little more complicated than that, but I want to explain the original statement before I go any farther.
Anthropologists have a category they refer to as "Mediterranean societies," because many of the cultures which developed around the Mediterranean, both ancient and modern, have certain shared assumptions about honor, particularly the honor of the household -- roughly speaking, that the honor of the men in the household depends on the sexual chastity of the women of that household. So a woman who is seduced or raped hasn't dishonored herself -- she's dishonored her menfolk (seduction) or been the vessel by which some outside man has dishonored the men of her family (rape). It's a little difficult to tell whether a woman has honor as an individual in this kind of society, or whether she's just the embodiment of the honor of her male relatives, but it's mostly the latter. Anyway, the key point is that the sexual behavior of a woman can increase of decrease the honor of her male relatives, including her husband, and (at least in some of these societies) a man who's wife or daughter or sister has been touched by any kind of sexual impropriety can restore his own honor by killing the woman in question.
Classical Greece, or rather, Classical Athens, is a particularly good example of this kind of society. Rome is a little more complicated, especially in the later Republic, because of the way Roman families and Roman marriages are made. On the one hand, it's clear that the typical Mediterranean model was perfectly intelligible to Romans -- there's a famous story about a father who kills his own daughter to prevent her from being enslaved and raped and thus to preserve the honor of his household. At the same time, some women at least seem to have their own honor: in Livy's version of Lucretia's death, she kills herself to preserve her own honor, not that of her father or husband (and Tarquin succeeds in raping her not because he threatens to kill her, but because he threatens to arrange her body after death in such a way that it will seem that she was caught in adultery with a slave). Lucretia kills herself despite the protests of her male relatives because she feels that her honor has been diminished. Then, to avenge her, her relatives drive out the last king of Rome and establish the Republic: make of that what you will.
Where Roman women embody the honor of their families, the honor is that of their birth-family rather than their husbands -- Cicero, to slander Clodia, reminds her of her ancestors and all the other patrician Claudii and attacks her for not living up to the model they set. In Augustus' adultery legislation, a husband has no right to kill a wife discovered in adultery, but a father does (under certain limiting circumstances -- that the adultery happens in his house or the husband's house, that he find the couple in flagrante and that he kill the lover as well). This legislation is almost certainly the first time that adultery is made a criminal offense in Roman law (rapists could be charged with violence or sexual misconduct).
It's also worth noting that a Roman birth-family is just as likely to be dishonored by the actions of its male members; the major difference between male honor and female honor is that female honor is pretty much limited to the sexual sphere, whereas men can have honor in many different ways (e.g. politics and military service). Some Roman women do also kill themselves for political reasons (think of Porcia, Cato's daughter and Brutus' wife), though, so even that isn't a hard-and-fast rule.
OK, to bring this back to Niobe, there's the additional complication that her background isn't all that clear -- she does have a Greek name, although her family are apparently from Italy and almost certainly Roman citizens (they have to be, for the marriage to be valid). So they might be Greeks long-settled in Southern Italy -- and I'm not sure what cultural practices in Magna Graecia are common in the first century BCE, although Naples for instance was a Greek town. So Niobe might believe that she could restore Lucius' honor by killing herself, but Lucius would see her death as a way of asserting her own honor (since if he'd felt dishonored he could have divorced her with no difficulty). One cannot, however, make the statement, "Niobe killed herself to restore Vorenus' honor," at least not without quite a few caveats about what she might have thought she was doing as opposed to what he or any other Roman would have thought.
There are further complicating factors to do with the political and ethical stance Vorenus appears to have taken, but I think I've gone on long enough.
no subject
no subject
Yeah, but didn't she basically fall head-first onto the stone pavement of their courtyard? I mean, that screams "fatal head-injury" to me.
I saw a couple people say the thing about "oh, she did it for his honor," as if it were fact. You weren't one of those people! I think you're right, though, that deflecting Lucius' anger was a big part of why she killed herself (and it wouldn't have been within his rights to kill her, although he might have gotten away with killing the child, but even then it might have come to trial -- but that wouldn't necessarily have stopped Lucius from doing it).
Also, suicide is a much more acceptable option in the Roman world than it is now -- under certain circumstances, it was accepted as the best response.
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
Probably, to give the viewers a big shock and then keep them guessing!
no subject
No! Go on more!
Pretty please?
no subject
I think that part of the reason that Niobe commits suicide is also because of the kind of man Vorenus is. Remember that people used to refer to Vorenus as a "Catonian," and think about what Cato did. A number of important Roman political figures commit suicide rather than live with a situation they consider unacceptable (although usually, that isn't getting found out as an adulteress, you know?). But I think that Vorenus and Niobe both by into a kind of aspirational ideology which includes a healthy dose of Stoicism -- and although Niobe is a survivor and a fighter and mostly too hard-headed to think about killing herself, I can almost see her responding to the pressure of Vorenus' discovery by deciding that she'd lived long enough, and that she would do more good by dying than by living.
Does this make any sense? Basically, to Romans sometimes suicide is the practical choice.
---
Anyway, what i think I mean is that if Vorenus is a "Catonian" he's probably also a stoic, and that means that -- to him -- suicide is always a reasonable option. And Niobe might very well share that opinion. Although I think that the people who say that her main goal was to prevent any violence on Lucius' part are not wrong.
no subject
So I do think she killed herself out of love for the boy and possibly for Vorenus, but that she was more focused on having him alive and willing and able to protect all her children than on protecting his "honor", with the caveat that at this point she does understand him well enough to understand that "honor" was a significant motivator for him.
The dinner table speech about what makes a good marriage and why each of them thought it was important for Vorena to marry well was really significant.
PS
Re: hi there!
You kept making such interesting comments in other people's journals, but about Rome -- I admit that I had no idea that we shared all those other interests! Although I think that my favorite pre-solo Aimee Mann song is "The Other End (of the Telescope)" -- but my CD player ate that disc, and I still haven't replaced it. It's a close call between that and "Coming Up Close."
Dunnett is wonderful, if you don't mind a bit of Latin and Medieval French mixed into your novels. And can accept that in the real world no one has ever spoken like that.
Re: hi there!
Well, people pay me to know this kind of thing, and to be able to explain it to others.
Ah, I'm a sucker for witty elaborate dialogue....
Well, then what are you waiting for? Unless you're allergic to tormented heroes, put down whatever you're doing and run, do not walk, to your library or bookstore! At least try starting at the beginning, with Game of Kings. (According to Dunnett, Alcibiades is among the models for Francis Crawford, the hero of the Lymond Chronicles, which is the series you should probably start with. I know no greater form of recommendation!)
Re: hi there!
It has its good points. Unfortunately, it also involves grading papers and exams, and has Deans in it.
You really need to start reading Dunnett. You need to have started Dunnett yesterday. There will be drunkenness and pining. Sometimes both at once.