vaznetti: (mary burning)
vaznetti ([personal profile] vaznetti) wrote2006-08-28 08:00 am
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SPN: the absence of women

The absence of female characters from the ongoing SPN narrative seems to be the subject du jour, so I thought I'd jump in, because I'm usually one of the first to cry "misogyny" in the shows I watch (I'm looking at you, XF) but I don't see that here.


I think my response to this issue is based on the way I read the text, and so I think (a) that there are satisfying textual reasons for the absence of women and (b) that the show itself can be read as making the absence of women a problem. As we see in pretty much every intro for the whole run of the show, the Winchester family is an all-male enterprise, and it's an all-male enterprise because all the women in it were killed off -- not just Mary, but also Jess, at least in part because she was close enough to Sam to be perceived as a threat by the Demon. They didn't decide to leave the womenfolk at home while they went out on the road to do manly things like hunt demons -- they were driven to that when their whole world was thrown into imbalance by an external force which removed (effective) women from the world. Sam and John, at least, would like to return to a world with significant women in it, but they're both particular about who those women are -- they're attached to the idea of women as people as well as women as symbols. Dean's a good deal less particular, but he has all those rejection and abandonment issues, most of which are rooted in the loss of his mother at such a young age; again, the absence of women is a bad thing here.

I guess the short version is -- there are no women in the Winchester family because the Demon killed them all. The Demon is the big Evil, therefore the show does not seem to be telling me that the absence of women is a good thing. The Winchesters cope fairly well with a world which lacks significant women, but that world is not (in my opinion) presented as complete.

I'd like to talk about the guest-stars here, but maybe later -- right now it seems to me that there are villains and victims who are female, and villains and victims who are male or ungendered, and that female guest stars seem about as able to cope with what the Winchesters do as male guest stars. And ultimately, my reading of the show is based on the mytharc, not the MOTWs. Mileage varies.



As for comparisons to Buffy or XF, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the producers used the fact that the main characters are male to sell the show -- it's something to differentiate it on a network which already has a fair number of shows with a strong female presence (I mean, Charmed is still running, isn't it? and every time I catch an episode of Smallville, it seems to be all about the romances). And I don't think that having lots of juicy roles for women necessarily is enough to clear a show. Alias, for example, had a female hero and included good roles for more mature female actresses. It also represented relationships between women as almost universally competitive rather than cooperative, and marriage as a locus for deception and (in extreme but prominent cases) a form of warfare in which the wife is an enemy agent inserted within the husband's territory to undermine and destroy him.

My apologies if this doesn't make sense; I was awake at an unreasonable hour this morning, and lay there thinking about this because I couldn't fall back to sleep.

[identity profile] brynnmck.livejournal.com 2006-08-29 04:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, yes, yes to all of this. SPN is a fledgling show. It's finding its way. And the first season of most shows is dedicated to exploring the original premise--which, in the case of SPN, is two brothers searching for their father and kicking ass along the way. I compare SPN to X-Files in some ways, at least in terms of its setup (two main characters on a quest, MotW setup, lots of one-off characters, etc.), and even with XF, it took a while for any secondary characters (Skinner, Krycek, the CSM) to become significant. But it did happen, and it enriched the story, and I do think that SPN can head that direction in the future. But we're talking about the first season, here. Did it bug me that the early episodes contained a string of damsels in distress? Yeah, kinda. But taking the season as a whole, we see a whole bunch of different people in distress, and Dean and Sam aren't particularly connected to any of them (with the exception of Cassie and Sarah, and maybe Max, since Sam identifies so strongly with him), and that's fine with me for now. As time goes on, they can expand the world in an organic way, but for now, we're talking about the basic premise of the show, which involves three men. If that's not your (and this is the general "you," since obviously I am agreeing with you, personally :) ) thing, then probably SPN isn't the show for you, you know?

[identity profile] veejane.livejournal.com 2006-08-29 08:06 pm (UTC)(link)
I think the show figured out it had a female demographic a while ago; or else we woud not have nearly the number of loooooong tracking shots up Dean's body while he sleeps, or shirtless shots.

The third or fourth episode I watched, I was like, What is this, arty gay porn?


...not that there is anything wrong with that.

[identity profile] veejane.livejournal.com 2006-08-29 08:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Grumble grumble I have high coherence-standards grumble also I like ass-kicking grumble grumble.

FWIW, I also think Tom Clancy could stand a good kick in the patoot (or possibly six weeks of Communist summer camp), and I haven't read much of the remaining authors you cite. I agree, of course, that the literature of exclusion still exists; but to see it on network television, where the whole idea is wide appeal, is a bit mind-boggling.

I mean, wrestling has female characters. Who wear bikinis and have capped teeth, but, within their "stories" those female characters have agency and consciousness.

[identity profile] elishavah.livejournal.com 2006-08-29 10:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I know V said she didn't want to, but I'm contemplating doing a blow-by-blow of the guest stars, because as I've said to others before, the victims of the week have never struck me as particularly damsel-like. The girl from Hook Man comes the closest, and the guy from Asylum runs a close second.

Anyway, yes, first season of a show with only two people -- men -- in the credits. That alone really tells you something about what you should be expecting.

(Anonymous) 2006-08-30 02:08 am (UTC)(link)
You got the breakdown I did, yes? Feel free to crib notes if you fancy.

- hg

[identity profile] lunardreamed.livejournal.com 2006-08-31 03:50 am (UTC)(link)
the victims of the week have never struck me as particularly damsel-like

Jumping in here, because this conversation is fascinating, but also look at some of the characters that were victims. I know not everyone agrees on popularity, but I especially liked Sarah and Andrea.

Neither of them faded into the background like "damsels in distress," but, more importantly, I think they were the most admired by Dean, who is supposed to be the stereotypical man's man. But what did he tell Sam when Sarah wouldn't run away? "Marry her." And I seriously don't think he was kidding. At least, not in the sense that this was an awesome woman who was worth time and effort.

And I know Cassie wasn't particularly popular, but I didn't see her calling Dean because she was a victim, but because, he was the expert. And it's pretty obvious that Dean's long term attraction to her was because she wasn't one of those blonde bimbos he claims to like.

And Layla. Her strength was that she wasn't the victim that Dean thought she was.

[identity profile] andromakhe001.livejournal.com 2006-08-31 03:58 am (UTC)(link)
Yes but that isn't the show nor should it become the show, imo. I'm glad the focus is where it has been(and I'm glad there is no one else in the Impala). The show IS different precisely because of that focus. This kind of character additions turns it into any number of other shows. Not having females around often actually makes the show more interesting and unpredictable in what it might do in various situations--because normally females would be left to 'deal with that' or there would be that common male/female dynamic. But this makes them take a different tact. It's like Horatio Hornblower, which was set on shipboard--the men really only had each other and so that is where the emotions were mainly invested--in their friendships, in how they try to help each other, support each other, take care of each other, etc. That in turn allowed a kind of different POV from what is usually presented. There is nothing wrong with that. There have been plenty of shows that focus mainly on the interaction between women, either as friends or enemies or relatives.

[identity profile] andromakhe001.livejournal.com 2006-08-31 04:15 am (UTC)(link)
So what? I mean I hate to say it, but so what? It doesn't need to be a scorecard. It's telling a story. A story that happens to be largely about men. I don't see that as a problem. Not every story needs to have it's tokens and place holders and examples of every point of view.

I don't need female characters to 'identify' with, I identify just fine with the Winchesters--as human beings. Who cares about their gender? I want to see their story, I don't want to see anyone else's. And I don't want that story being told to focus on romance much and pretty much the only way to get a female into the story is to make her a romantic partner(and we know they'd never be able to resist the temptation to do that even if they brought in a female character who wasn't one initially--just like every military show and every cop show, etc, etc--somehow someway the male / female stars of the show who work together end up coupling up).

I happen to like stories that focus on friendship, family, action, etc too. Once romance gets put into it, it tends to take over and the story just becomes too much like every a million other shows. If anything insisting on certain characteristics as being 'feminine' and 'masculine' which need characters of the proper gender to show them up, either by fulfilling them or opposing them, seems to me to just continue old stereotypes. Dean, Sam and John take on those characteristics because they are HUMAN characteristics and if anything the fact that they do points that up. It's mainly convenience at best and force at worst which have made them 'male and female' characteristics.

The main characters are who they are, I see no need to change that or expand that to include an equivalent female. The other characters, the guest stars--women are portrayed as being no more nor less capable than men are. In fact if anything the female characters are shown as being rather more capable then the male ones in general. So I never feel that Supernatural is showing women in a bad light.

[identity profile] lunardreamed.livejournal.com 2006-08-31 04:21 am (UTC)(link)
I've been seeing tidbits of this across lj, so I want to respond. At the end of the second season of NCIS (they killed off the female character and obviously had to replace her with another female character), there was a huge outcry (let's face it, mostly from slashers) that they didn't want another woman added, who would only disrupt the dynamic of the show (now that there were four guys and one girl, who stayed "home" in the lab). I argued against this because part of what I enjoy about shows is having a character to relate to and being female is often a necessary requirement. (I loved Buffy.)

Anyway, to me, that doesn't apply here. This is a show about two brothers. I hope it remains a show about two brothers. I wouldn't mind seeing female guests (especially a female hunter) or even an occasional recurring role, but essentially I don't want a female in there. Other shows, I argue for it, because it is a team show and should include women. Or a family show, which should include women. But this isn't either. Not to me. (Which, by the way, is why I don't want John hanging around too long. I like him as being a symbol similar to that of their mother.)

I do agree that we should fight for female characters, but I think someone else mentioned that you can't throw them in anywhere. I think a long term relationship for one of the boys, unless it was John, would unbalance the show, because it would draw focus from the brother dynamic. I think that a female character would either be resented by the fans, become a backdrop character, there for demographics, who would disrupt the premise which drew people to the show in the first place. I don't think that that's a good way to encourage strong female characters on TV. We need to do that by showing them in a setting that spotlights them and those wonderful characteristics. Supernatural just isn't that show now, and probably shouldn't, and can't very effectively become such a show. Sometimes, I think that people get so focused on the war that they battle the wrong things and others start to resent the whole war.

Finally, I don't think there's anything implicitly wrong with a show that has no strong female characters, just as there isn't anything implicitly wrong with a show that had no strong male characters (I think Charmed did a good job on that). And it's not like we've got pure male shows cropping up all over TV, so I don't see a fight on that front. Where I do see the fight is on the shows that do have female characters, but fail to show them as what I think of as strong characters. (I'm talking about Without a Trace or CSI, here, where the women are either married with kids, or sleeping with all the guys, or mooning after the guys. Seriously, Warrick's gambling "problem" lasted 6 episodes, Sara's been letting her crush get in the way for 6 seasons. Not to mention, Catherine has a new dilemma each season. And they ruined a fantastic character like Lady Heather. They could have left her alone, I was happy with two episodes, but they had to bring her back just to make her a criminal.) These are shows that do need strong female characters, can incorporate them, and have failed in some ways.

(Oh, by the way, Charmed ended its last season.)

[identity profile] andromakhe001.livejournal.com 2006-08-31 04:29 am (UTC)(link)
Oh I know what you mean. It annoys me so much when I see it. I always remember specifically this commercial advertising little electrical cars for kids. Not only was the male female equivalent like 2 girls to 4 boys but if a boy and a girl were in the little car together--the boy was driving. And the car the little girls were allowed to drive was...pink.

You ask me that's far more bothersome than what Supernatural is doing. They have a pretty good mix of characters, outside the leads. Sure they have the bloody Mary girl(and there ARE girls like that) but they do have the Benders' sheriff too. And the flight attendent in Phantom Traveller, Dean is terrified of flying but she, who had been in a plane crash recently, is calm cool and collected in the face of not only a potential second plane crash but a demon taking over her co-pilot and a couple of whacko young guys she doesn't know trying to exorcise him. :) What I like about SPN honestly is that it doesn't seem to give much regard to gender in terms of how the other characters are treated. Dean and Sam are treated as they are as a function of their lead roles, not just because they are male. On the 'even playing field' of the other characters--the characters both male and female are treated pretty equally and females often show alot of gumption. More often than the male guests really. But everyone, male and female, except the Winchesters, are dealing with things they didn't think existed, supernatural things that were supposed to be scary stories, not real--and they all freak out about it.

[identity profile] andromakhe001.livejournal.com 2006-08-31 04:35 am (UTC)(link)
Really? I remember one long tracking shot up Dean's body as he sleeps(Phantom Traveller, 4th episode) and 3 shirtless scenes altogether. Dean in Skin(though how much that counts, he started ripping his skin off right away), the top of Dean's chest and shoulders only, briefly, in the closing/opening scene of Asylum/Scarecrow and then the big "Sam in a towel" shot in Hell House. Not really very many at all compared to just about every other WB show except maybe 7th Heaven. :)

It might just be that our leads are very attractive and even perfectly normally staged shots of them look like arty gay porn. :) Let's face it, Jensen doesn't even need to try, he looks like 'arty gay porn' just about no matter what he's doing and has since he was about 17 years old. LOL

[identity profile] cocombat.livejournal.com 2006-08-31 06:02 am (UTC)(link)
Ah, yes. That sums it up for me. I don't want any other main characters. Not boys, not girls.
There are two at the moment, with John as a reoccuring guest. I'm quite liking the non-ensembleness, but, that'll probably change over time.
*sigh*

Given that there are only two main characters, I'm ok that they're both guys, it's 'narrow focus' rather than sexism, as long as the females that are represented on the show are as equally rounded as the male guests, and play a range of roles, which I think they do. My only quibble at the moment, is the lack of female hunters.
:P


In contrast, I am much, *much* more offended by ensemble shows which do have female characters, only for them to be marginalised or fulfill only stereotypical roles.
:(

[identity profile] astri13.livejournal.com 2006-08-31 10:29 am (UTC)(link)
Here via the NL.

And I really agree with this. I never saw the absence of women on the show as a sign for "keep them barefoot, pregnant and out."
The premise was two guys fighting evil and I soon found myself invested in the guys.

There are some shows who have female leads yet if the show killed them all off I wouldn`t really care because I do not care about their characters. I doesn`t work like: Me-woman, there-woman, me-likes. The character is what counts. Be they male or female.

And I`m soo glad they didn`t go the route in keeping Jess alive and adding her to the backseat or something because dear god in heaven I could see a love triangle rearing it`s ugly head right now. I`m so sick of this theme.
And frankly I don`t want a kick-ass chick in the backseat ever. Whose only reason for being there is being the quota-woman and love interest for the guys.

Write in a good female villain or an experienced female hunter or a helper in the human world. There are enough possibilities that don`t end up in a Lana Lang.

And as for needing strong female characters as in well written, I miss them on lots of show. And lots of them do have females in the cast. It`s not the same thing.
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[identity profile] coffeeandink.livejournal.com 2006-08-31 01:13 pm (UTC)(link)
This is sort of a general response to a lot of the comments (based on, but slightly different from, a comment in my LJ). I think it's treading new ground, but my ego may be deluding me; and of course making a general rather than specific response risks misrepresenting your argument. But I think some of our disagreement is based on proceeding from different assumptions, and it's worth clarifying that.

The problem for me is less how the show treats individual characters (where the writers actually show some kind of awareness of the corner they've backed themselves into, or at least of the cliches they might want to avoid) than how the show defines and genders humanity. Characters on the show divide roughly into heroes, victims, helpers, and monsters, and while men can be all four, women are limited to three at best. If this were a single occurance, it wouldn't matter; but it's not. It's one of many examples of a culture that overwhelmingly genders heroism and genders it male.

The closest the show's come to addressing this is "The Benders," where the deputy sheriff is so complex and real and *human* that I strongly suspect the role was written male and cast gender-blind--because the sheriff isn't treated as a Girl, she's treated as a person. And if writing to male default and then casting gender-blind gets me results like this, I am all in favor of it. But I think you're actually dismissing some of the show's most feminist writing if you focus on the mytharc to the exclusion of the MoTW, because the mytharc is *so* much more strongly gendered than the MoTWs. The mytharc tends to treat all women as reflections of Mary (Jess is very real to Sam, but to the narrative I think she's simply another Mary), but the MoTWs have more specific and individual characterizations and frequently treat the women as reflections of Dean or Sam--more often Dean than Sam, I think, but I'd have to do a count to be sure.


tabaqui: (winchestersbycarmendove)

[personal profile] tabaqui 2006-08-31 04:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh. Interesting. But. I don't particularly want a female 'main' character in SPN. Mostly because then we've got 'romance' . What else *could* we have? Either Sam or Dean or gods forbid *John* hooks up with some chick for some reason - or, say, Sarah joins them, anything - and then - romance! I'm so very *tired* of forced romances. I'm so very *tired* of the guy and the girl flirting and smooching and bantering and fighting over stupid shite and making up. Boring. Trite. *Everywhere*.

I *like* just the boys in this. I *like* seeing how they cope with their issues, including their women issues. I *like* a show where i don't have to roll my eyes in disgust at some lame-ass cutie-pie crap with stale back-and-forth that leads to UST that might happen next season!!! a la mulder and scully. Gah. Please.

I like my guys. I want my guys. I need my fucked up daddy!son!issues! show. You make interesting points, but i don't want to see them become realities for *this* show.

[identity profile] veejane.livejournal.com 2006-08-31 07:00 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm sorry, you see "introduce a female consciousness" and automatically assume "love interest"? What kind of world do we live in that a female presence is necessarily a love interest?

Are women nothing but their sex organs? Come on! Is it really so revolutionary and shocking an idea, that a woman might just do her thing and be herself without getting all When Harry Met Sally the nearest available male?? For that matter, what if the introduced character were a sister, as Hossgal (among others) has suggested? Please tell me you don't really think the only oportunity for female presense is as someone to stare longingly after the "main characters."

(And for cri-yi, in the absence of women, fandom is perfectly happy to pair two men, and for that matter, large segments of fandom are perfectly happy breaking incest taboos while doing it. While I agree that forced romance is irritating, good luck legislating it out!)
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[identity profile] coffeeandink.livejournal.com 2006-08-31 07:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, I had the same problem with XF.

I'm not sure about the women as reflections of the male heroes, either; it's something I want to think about more on rewatch.
tabaqui: (Default)

[personal profile] tabaqui 2006-08-31 07:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Because we're talking *television*, here. And catering to the lowest common denominator. And *executives* who live on planet Hollywood. So, yeah, i think any long-term woman introduced at this point who wasn't Missouri would be a love-interest or another demon. Sorry to say, that's the way *television* people think.

That's what we *get*. Perfectly good shows ruined because 'they' feel they *have* to throw together *somebody* and have UST and love-gone-wrong and blah blah blah to make the show have *drama*. They haven't learned that love and death are *not* the only dramatic plot elements out there.

A sister, at this point, would be as forced as a love-interest. Unless s/he meant a sister-like figure? *haven't read all the comments since i posted* A 'real' sister - no. Just...a plot contrivance. A 'sister-like' person...eh. I don't, frankly, trust the writers that far. Some of the fanfic writers? In a heartbeat. But not people who're getting paid to get the biggest slice of the demographic pie.

This show is about a father and his two sons or - really - about two brothers and their father. I *like* it. I enjoy the dynamic. I don't see the need to insert a female character in there just because there isn't one, and i don't feel like i'm 'losing' something because there isn't a female character. There are *plenty* of shows with strong female leads i enjoy - the 'Bones' show springs to mind, as does the SVU law and order show, SGA, hell, even House.

Spn *not* having a female lead or main/recurring character doesn't make it bad, or sexist, or anything else. It makes it what it is.

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