BSG: end of season thoughts

[vaznetti]

OK, I finally got to see KLG II. And all I can really say is

Wow. And eeee! And when is the nest season starting, please?

I've read a little commentary, and have some random thoughts.

• Adama's posture at the very end mimicked Baltar's on Kobol -- both in a near-crucified pose. It was especially interesting because of the contrast in their setting: Baltar lying on the grass, Adama bleeding all over the tactical table. And that was a striking image: the blood flowing over the white of the table, with the dark shape of Adama surrounded by Lee, Tigh, and Dualla. The show is not only beautifully-written, it's also beautifully shot.



• Is Baltar going to be upset when he realizes that the infant he saw is going to be Boomer and Helo's, rather than his and Six's?



• That wail that Starbuck let out when she heard that Caprica!Boomer is pregnant? Amazing.



• I'm still trying to understand how Cylons think. Interesting that they value their own lives as little as they do human life: presumably they could have prevented the nuclear bomb from going off on their Battlestar, if they'd wanted. I wonder whether the Cylons have any concept of the individual at all -- it seems probable to me that they don't, which may be why they have no idea that murdering over 99% of the humans is wrong, leaving aside the "God told us to!" issue. Because it might be that, from the Cylon perspective, as long as one model survives, they all are considered to have survived, and so the scale of the human loss is literally unimaginable to them.



• And moving on from that, is it then the case that the hybrid children they're trying to create would be both Cylon and individual? Or maybe "unique" is the word I'm looking for? The Cylons do seem to be aware that there's some kind of deep lack to them.



• Was the Cylon Battlestar alive? And does that count as another Cylon model?



• Moving on to speculation, it seems likely to me that Tigh's instinct will be to institute martial law, with himself in charge. But with Roslin imprisoned and Baltar missing, it seems that Tom Zarek will attempt a play for power, at which point one must wonder exactly what kind of arrangement he and Ellen Tigh came too, and just how much influence she has over her husband.



• If Roslin doesn't regain her position, the civilian government will go either to Zarek or to Baltar. I'm not sure what I think about that: I think that there needs to be more attention to the civilians in this story next season.



• I loved the little conversation between Billy and Dualla during the standoff. Neither of them could quite understand how they'd reached this point.



• How badly hurt was Kara? I couldn't tell, but she looked badly beat-up. I admit to being a little confused about how exactly the Arrow of Apollo is going to help them find Earth. Or how they're going to get off Caprica, now that the Cylons know they're there. Unless Caprica!Six was working on her own? Are the Cylons unified? It seems more and more likely that they're working at cross-purposes, much of the time. But I also wonder whether they might be being controlled by some greater intelligence -- not that this is what they mean when they say "God," but that I think their consciousness may be very different from human consciousness.

I have a feeling that I could keep talking about this for a while, especially the question of the Cylon plan.


Are people still talking about this, or have I missed the boat entirely?

Comments

[raffaella.livejournal.com]

Supposing that the Cylons share a unified consciousness, they seem to be working in two directions. The first is to find Earth, possibly to destroy it. And despite the fact that they apparently have a diferent god (but there is an interesting deleted scene about that in KLG1, which may not be relevant since it was cut, but anyway: Tigh asks the priestess why the humans left Kobol, and she answers that one god wanted to be elevated above the others, which led to a war between the gods. Six is listening and tells Baltar something like "Blasphemy! There was only one god from the beginning". So does their god come from the colonists' Pantheon? Possibly. But since it's a deleted scene, we'll have to wait until season 2 to see if this backstory is maintained or if they'll choose a different direction), the cylons know the sacred scrolls of the colonies and seem to believe in them: see how Six read the events in "Hand of God" through a human prophecy, the fact that Leoben Conroy quoted human scriptures to Kara, and the fact that the Cylons apparently believe that Roslin is the reincarnation of the prophetess and will lead the humans to Earth. So their religion would be not so much an entirely new religion (does such a thing existe anyway?) as an offshoot, a new Testament added to the Old Testament of the Humans. If they believe that Roslin will lead the humans to Earth, it is in their interest to have her maintained as president, which could explain why Adama was shot. That doesn't explain why Six fought Kara (but Six might be a rogue element. Or, if she isn't, one could argue that she didn't really try to kill Kara, only to hurt her -- possibly because of the affair with Baltar, if she shares a consciousness with the Six in Baltar's head. I don't know what to think of that.)

The second direction is to create hybrids, but for their plan to work, this new race has to be created in particular circumstances. They could have captured humans and used them as sperm and ova donors any time. But Six's ghoulish interest in Helo's feelings for Boomer, the "God is love" recurring theme, and what Boomer told Helo -- that this child was "the next step" and would bring them closer to god -- tells me that this hybrid had to be conceived out of love. But why is it so important? I have no idea.

It's a bit difficult to find a coherent explanation to everything we saw, because like you said, the Cylons seem to be working at cross purposes. I can't wait for season 2 to see how things turn out.

[vaznetti]

I suspect that some of what seems to us to be evidence that the Cylons are working at cross-purposes might be evidence of a struggle among the Cylons for power, now that their main enemy has essentially been defeated. They might have maintained some unity while they were at war with the Colonies, but now that they have humanity on the run, the question might not only be "what to do next?" but also "who is going to be in charge now?" I think one could argue that there's some tenstion between the Six model on Caprica and the Boomer model there.

But Caprica!Boomer is apparently at odds with the other Cylons now, which is strange, unless the hybrid is going to be something other than what they expect.

Did they destroy the colonies simply to have room for this new race of hybrids to live? Do the current Cylon models see themselves as merely preliminary? That's what Six's comment to Baltar implied, I thought. Perhaps the Cylons believe that they're still wandering in the desert -- but in that case, is Earth the promised land?

I need to think this through.

[raffaella.livejournal.com]

I suspect that some of what seems to us to be evidence that the Cylons are working at cross-purposes might be evidence of a struggle among the Cylons for power, now that their main enemy has essentially been defeated. They might have maintained some unity while they were at war with the Colonies, but now that they have humanity on the run, the question might not only be "what to do next?" but also "who is going to be in charge now?" I think one could argue that there's some tenstion between the Six model on Caprica and the Boomer model there.

I think you're right. I don't quite know what to think about CapricaBoomer's motivations, but Six seems to see her as a rival. It's not just on Caprica, by the way. On Galactica, when Boomer enters the lab to ask Baltar to test her, ChipSix says "Look at what the cat dragged in". Between that and her comment that the Boomer model is weak, there's definitely some hostility there. Which confuses me, actually, because I thought each Six and Boomer definitely had a measure of individuality. But while the two Boomer models don't seem to communicate, it looks like there is a level of communication betweeen the Six in Baltar's head and the black-clad Six on Caprica. And I may be reading too much into the fight between her and Starbuck, but she could have snapped her neck at any moment. She contented herself with landing a series of blows, particularly to the face, just like when she gave Boomer a beating -- she apparently likes to hurt people (or rivals), but she didn't seem to want to kill her. I don't know. Anyway, despite what she said to the Doral model, she definitely feels at least some emotions: jealousy and anger.


But Caprica!Boomer is apparently at odds with the other Cylons now,

I don't know what to think of that. She's on the run, probably to protect Helo, possibly because she has different plans for the baby, but she told Helo that the baby was the next step that would bring them closer to God, and she was looking for the arrow of Apollo too. So it looks like she's still pursuing at least part of the Cylon's goals. Or is she going
to bring their plan to fruition by trying to precisely avoid that, which is the kind of story I love? I think I'll have to wait until the writers themselves figure out what the Cylons' plan is.

I like your idea of Earth as the promised land for the Cylons too. Maybe things will become clearer once we know more about their God.

Writing about Six beating up Boomer and Starbuck made me realise that it's amazing Helo isn't more wary of Starbuck. It's almost exactly the same situation: he suddenly finds himself in front of the last person he expected to see, fighting a cylon, she's beaten up and needs help... If they're stuck on Caprica for a while, I wonder if he won't think it's another setup. Particularly since she came with a Cylon raider.

[vaznetti]

I don't quite know what to think about CapricaBoomer's motivations, but Six seems to see her as a rival.

Six seems to see everyone as a rival or a tool. It's interesting that the rivalry seems to be focused on female humans and Cylons -- presumably to do with the question of who is going to be the mother-figure for the new Cylon world? I don't like choosing such a gendered explanation, but it seems to fit Six, at least.

So it looks like she's still pursuing at least part of the Cylon's goals.

Of course, the problem with prophecy is that it's often open to a number of possible interpretations -- it could be that the Six models and the Boomer models follow different schools of interpretation at this stage.

Good point about Helo -- although presumably she'll show exhaustion and suffer from her wounds, unlike Boomer.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

and the fact that the Cylons apparently believe that Roslin is the reincarnation of the prophetess and will lead the humans to Earth.

i've never seen anything that leads me to believe that. are you thinking of a particular scene? i see Roslin and Elosha believing that certainly, but not the cylons. i see the cylons believing in the prophecy, but nothing that says they believe Roslin is the one spoken of. and given the ending of KLG2, i'd venture that they think it's Adama.

[raffaella.livejournal.com]

i see the cylons believing in the prophecy, but nothing that says they believe Roslin is the one spoken of.

You're right. It's the prophecy they believe in, the dying leader isn't named.

and given the ending of KLG2, i'd venture that they think it's Adama.

Definitely a possibility. There's only one reason why I don't like this idea: it is said that the leader will die before they reach Earth. This implies that Adama will die pretty quickly: he has bullet wounds, not a disease that will take months to spread. Given that they have a reasonably advanced medical technology, with MRI and such, he will either be saved, even if his recovery takes a long time, or die within a few days, and I don't see how he'd show them the way to Earth from his dying bed. He would have to be reasonably active for a while, like Roslin is, and I don't know how they could realistically maintain an agony from bullets wounds over several weeks. Also, I'm pretty sure that Elosha mentioned that this leader "suffered from a wasting disease." Of course, it's entirely possible that while Adama is being treated for his wounds, doctor Cottle discovers he's ill. But I really don't want Adama to die. Still, it would be interesting if this led Roslin to doubt that she is the leader of the prophecy.

It's also possible that the Cylons tried to kill Adama precisely because he deposed Roslin. If he remained the only one in charge, when Starbuck came back with the arrow of Apollo, he would just have chucked it in a corner. That's the main thing that made me think that the cylons believe in Roslin. That, and the fact that a lot of what Leoben Conroy said in Flesh and Bone (citing scriptures, saying that they would find Kobol) has been geared towards manipulating Roslin, not Adama. They only make their move against Adama once he does something against Roslin. Or maybe they thought it was the right moment to create anarchy within the fleet.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

Definitely a possibility. There's only one reason why I don't like this idea: it is said that the leader will die before they reach Earth. This implies that Adama will die pretty quickly:

if the prophecy is literally prophetic yes. what i mean though relates to the nature of prophecies and how people self-fulfill and self-interpret them, usually by hindsight.

i don't believe prophecies. i believe that the people who believe in prophecies *make* them come true. thus, i don't believe that Adama has to literally die. what matters is what the cylons *believe* and interpret and are willing to make true by their actions.

i don't see how they could possibly know about Roslin's illness, or that Roslin thinks she's the leader referred to in the prophecy, but they do know about the prophecy and they do know that Adama is the military leader of the fleet and they do know that he's a threat. i think that Boomer's actions were based on that belief, to make the prophecy come true by "killing" Adama.

which doesn't mean he isn't going to survive, simply that the cylons tried to off him.

what i really like, and i could be totally wrong here, is that, as i see it, the cylons are interpreting the prophecy one way (Adama) and Roslin et al are interpreting the prophecy another way (Roslin)...and those two ways conflict, serve different needs and can trigger different outcomes.

the randomness of nature, chance and free will....the biggest spanner in the universe.

[raffaella.livejournal.com]

I don't see how they could possibly know about Roslin's illness, or that Roslin thinks she's the leader referred to in the prophecy,

Someone in her close entourage could be a Cylon. Billy comes to mind. Or Elosha. I don't have a particular reason to believe that they are Cylons. I only have suspicions. But there are 8 models of Cylons we haven't identified yet, and some of them have to be characters we already know. There would be no interest, from a storytelling point of view, in having all the 8 Cylons be new characters, because the reveal would have no emotional impact. So I bet that there's at least one Cylon on Colonial one and another one on Galactica, and that we've already seen them.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

possibly. possibly not. but the speculation's fun. :D

*So* last week, darling

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

Are people still talking about this, or have I missed the boat entirely?

Nah, we've finished KLG and have gone all the way back to 33 and starting over again. *g*

*I*'m not done talking about it. People are having scattered convos all over, post your thoughts and people will likely drop in and put in theirs.

I liked Billy & Dee, too. Someone else said "Romeo and Juliet", but there has to be an adult version that fits better.

And I totally did not make that comparision between Adama and Baltar. Good eye.

- hg

Re: *So* last week, darling

[vaznetti]

I liked Billy & Dee, too. Someone else said "Romeo and Juliet", but there has to be an adult version that fits better.

I think they're both too sensible to be Romeo and Juliet -- they both can see the big picture, and they both can see that their loyalties are divided. Of course, that's a problem in itself because they both have a crazy loyal streak a mile wide. But I can imagine them working together behind the scenes to settle the differences between their respective bosses.

More thoughts...

[leadensky.livejournal.com]

Because it might be that, from the Cylon perspective, as long as one model survives, they all are considered to have survived, and so the scale of the human loss is literally unimaginable to them.

Interesting - I find it hard to believe that Six (at least) doesn't grasp the concept of individual, finite, human life, but that intellectual knowledge doesn't mean she understands it at a gut level. (We don't let childern smash individual ants, even though to the ant the colony is All.)

I think that there needs to be more attention to the civilians in this story next season.

*yes*.

I admit to being a little confused about how exactly the Arrow of Apollo is going to help them find Earth.

I am without clue. Except that I am 12 and "arrow of Apollo" is making it impossible for me to type with a straight face.

You've got some good thoughts on Cylon models - I'm looking forward to more info on what makes them different from each other. I'm guessing that there is more to it than just physical appearance. Which makes me wonder why they limited themselves to just 12 models in the first place.

- hg

Re: More thoughts...

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

Which makes me wonder why they limited themselves to just 12 models in the first place.

12 lords of Kobol?

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

I just watched this last night. Wow, wow, wow. I noticed the crucifix posture of Baltar, and wondered if that indicated his potential "godhood" or whether he is destined to be the sacrificial lamb. Good call with connecting that with Adama's posture on the table. That Boomer shot him just totally took me by surprise. I sort of expected her to stay behind on the Cylon ship and sacrifice herself in the explosion.
I'm really interested in exactly what the Cylons want to do with the hybrid children. Are they trying to make a race that combines the "best" of human and Cylon? No idea, but it's fascinating to think about. The Cylon religious mythology strikes me as similar to the radical Evangelical Christian right..redemption through fire and brimstone.
I can't wait for season 2!

[vaznetti]

Good call with connecting that with Adama's posture on the table.

I think they even have their right arms bent at the same angle.

I expected Boomer to stay behind on the Cylon ship as well, and was so shocked when she shot Adama! I don't know why, now that I think about it -- it wasn't entirely surprising, that she'd eventually attack someone in power.

[rhi]

Not having seen the last half of the season (cue the 'arrrgh'), all I can say is that the Billy/Dualla thing is going to be ugly, I suspect, because personally, I would put down good money that Billy is a Cylon. (In 33 only two characters are coping well with the sleep dep: Boomer, and Billy. There are other reasons for my opinion, but that's the one that comes to mind fastest.) Must catch up before next season starts....

[vaznetti]

I would put down good money that Billy is a Cylon.

Gee -- way to break my heart, here. I love Billy! Which is not to say that I think you're wrong, because frankly I think he's more likely than many of the other characters to be a Cylon. It's just that I would be sad.

[rhi]

::nodding:: I like Billy, too. But I can't shake that certainty. Sorry?

[lilahlackey.livejournal.com]

Are people still talking about this, or have I missed the boat entirely?

Are you kidding? I, for one, will be talking about this until the second season starts, and probably for quite a while after that, too. Hell, people are still talking about the miniseries, and that originally aired over a year ago!

Interesting that they value their own lives as little as they do human life.

I'm always struck by this when Boomer shoots Six in 33. Six is pretty clearly there just to provide Boomer with an effective entrance, and help prevent Helo from thinking too much about where she came from. And then the other Six just kind of looks at the dead body with no expression. It's chilling.

And moving on from that, is it then the case that the hybrid children they're trying to create would be both Cylon and individual?

I have no idea right now what the Cylons are hoping to get out of the human interbreeding, as they seem to despise most human characteristics, but individuality is definitely a possibility. The only thing I've been able to come up with is that "procreation is one of God's commandments," but whatever the Cylons have been doing for the last 40 years would seem to fit the definition of "procreation" too.

Are the Cylons unified? It seems more and more likely that they're working at cross-purposes, much of the time.

I still think they're all working for the same purpose (even the supposedly defected CapricaBoomer), but they don't all seem to be aware of that fact. Makes me wonder if the human Cylons are really in charge at all. Maybe there's some higher form of Cylon that's stayed in the background all this time. Someone had to create the human models, after all, and introduce the concept of God. I really hope we get some answers about their plan in the second season.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

I have no idea right now what the Cylons are hoping to get out of the human interbreeding, as they seem to despise most human characteristics, but individuality is definitely a possibility. The only thing I've been able to come up with is that "procreation is one of God's commandments," but whatever the Cylons have been doing for the last 40 years would seem to fit the definition of "procreation" too.

the angels, who even as they despised humans, craved free will and fought a war with God over it.

[lilahlackey.livejournal.com]

So . . . the Cylons can admire/covet one characteristic of an otherwise despised species, like individuality? I guess I'm not really sure where your analogy is going. Could you explain further?

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

the Cylons believe that humans are weak, flawed, evil, inferior, what have you. i don't think it's one characteristic, i think it's humanity specifically. think back to Leoben's conversations with Starbuck. *why* the human cylons sweat, *why* they fear, *why* they get hungry. because it's human. i think they're trying to be human for their God.

[lilahlackey.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that does make sense given what we've heard from the Cylons. I guess it just doesn't seem rational to me. If they believe that God created them because the humans were weak, flawed and evil, why would they believe God wanted them to have those same flaws? Well, either way, I assume we'll find out more about their religion and the "plan" next season. Hope so, anyway.

[somedaybitch.livejournal.com]

i think that, and i forgot this part before, Cylons did what they did because they see the humans, their "parents", as having sinned. also, God made humans and they, the Cylons, are trying to be better than humans, more human perhaps, in order to show their God that what he made was good but the humans were simply unworthy. or uh, something like that.

[malograntum.livejournal.com]

I admit to being a little confused about how exactly the Arrow of Apollo is going to help them find Earth.

I've heard the theory that the "Arrow of Apollo" in the prophecy will turn out not to be the physical arrow retrieved by Starbuck--that we'll be led to Earth by Helo or something.

The wooden wall shall not fail, and all that.

[vaznetti]

The wooden wall shall not fail, and all that.

Oracles are such a pain! At least the humans haven't tried to go back and get a better one, yet.

So far, all the interpretations have been sadly literal (12 vipers, 12 Vipers), so perhaps it's time for something a little looser.